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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:29am
I've tried doing real time automated finish times tied into a automatically updating race sheet, and for me its just too stressful. For 90% of the fleet it works fine, and then three or four boats come in together, or for some reason I can't quite find Fred on the list or something and it all goes pear shaped, and because I've committed to the electronics then I'm in deep trouble. So for me it only works if I have full paper backup with someone else doing that part.

The other thing that was interesting was for Bart's Bash last year I was on the CB calling the boats through to another writing it down, and when I came to do the results formally I reviewed the video against the paper copy, and found more errors than I would have hoped, but also discovered that it took me well over an hour to review about 15 minutes of finish video.

Another issue is that every electronic device I've got is very difficult for me to use reliably on a committee boat in bright sunshine. That was another lesson from using the electronics at BB and also at other events. A radio link to a shore based operator of the electronics could help with that, but then its all upping the headcount needed to run the racing, which is fine for major events with lots of volunteers, but not so clever if you're trying to keep the headcount down on the duty team for ordinary club racing.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but every time I try it it goes pear shaped. Probably easier for clubs who have a fixed finish line and a permanent race box,but we've abandoned that.

On line sign on, on the other hand, ought to be very practical. I've put a proposal together to my club for a system where we'd have a touch screen like a Doctors surgery in the clubhouse or entries, which would be client server/web driven so that people could also sign on using mobiles or tablets or whatever. That would give us a more accurate list of entrants with less effort, which would certainly help get results out more quickly. You'd still have the people who forget to enter to chase up of course unless you get all draconian and refuse to count anyone who doesn't sign on properly. That feels too 1950s to me, we just have a quid in the RNLI box for anyone who forgets.

Edited by JimC - 13 May 15 at 10:32am
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transient View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:33am
Originally posted by Woodburner

Then why is there no transparency as to who this group are, I've heard lots of rumours plus the occasion post here from folk I immediately forget.




Do you seriously expect them to identify themselves..........I bloody wouldn't. Just think about all the irrational personal attacks they'd get from folk like yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:41am
Originally posted by JimC

I've tried doing real time automated finish times tied into a automatically updating race sheet, and for me its just too stressful. For 90% of the fleet it works fine, and then three or four boats come in together, or for some reason I can't quite find Fred on the list or something and it all goes pear shaped, and because I've committed to the electronics then I'm in deep trouble. So for me it only works if I have full paper backup with someone else doing that part.

The other thing that was interesting was for Bart's Bash last year I was on the CB calling the boats through to another writing it down, and when I came to do the results formally I reviewed the video against the paper copy, and found more errors than I would have hoped, but also discovered that it took me well over an hour to review about 15 minutes of finish video.

Another issue is that every electronic device I've got is very difficult for me to use reliably on a committee boat in bright sunshine. That was another lesson from using the electronics at BB and also at other events. A radio link to a shore based operator of the electronics could help with that, but then its all upping the headcount needed to run the racing, which is fine for major events with lots of volunteers, but not so clever if you're trying to keep the headcount down on the duty team for ordinary club racing.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but every time I try it it goes pear shaped. Probably easier for clubs who have a fixed finish line and a permanent race box,but we've abandoned that.

On line sign on, on the other hand, ought to be very practical. I've put a proposal together to my club for a system where we'd have a touch screen like a Doctors surgery in the clubhouse or entries, which would be client server/web driven so that people could also sign on using mobiles or tablets or whatever. That would give us a more accurate list of entrants with less effort, which would certainly help get results out more quickly. You'd still have the people who forget to enter to chase up of course unless you get all draconian and refuse to count anyone who doesn't sign on properly. That feels too 1950s to me, we just have a quid in the RNLI box for anyone who forgets.

Thanks for the response - it's interesting hearing your perspective.

One of the ideas I had for this app would be that could re-order the boats by simply dragging and dropping.... much like re-ordering a playlist on an mp3 app.

This would enable you sort the race order, more or less, ahead of the finish.  It would have no bearing on the results or data collection - it would simply be a useful app feature to keep the list view organised in a pragmatic manner.  

Regarding displays - yes they can be a PITA in bright sunshine- good point.  I understood you could buy military grade screen filters/protectors, and of course a marine engineering company could be commissioned to develop a bespoke IPX grade tablet using android that each club receives as part of its RYA licence to operate PY racing....  funding could be self generating???  

(I'm also firmly of the belief that even if you developed such a system, it would still find flaws in its own right and still find people who would whinge about it).  

And good call on the 1 in the RNLI box.... make it 2 next year.  LOL


Edited by turnturtle - 13 May 15 at 10:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Null Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 10:56am
Originally posted by gordon1277

Koops
so what your saying is the D Zero is a bandit of 1040 as it sailed the course at the same speed as the Blaze/ Fire. I agree about Paignton needing to update there Phantom handicap how many years out of date is 1035? I personally feel 1013 was about correct for me on the sea in a Phantom but as I was mostly last Phantom (apart from when those quicker cant read the course correctly) so its what I would expect.
I think the Phantoms did well on the Saturday as they can adjust the rig once at sea to suite the conditions where as others have to take a guess ashore.
Plus Mike especially is quick on flat water.

Interestingly we have quite a good benchmark within the Phantom fleet and the zero fleet.  Both my brother and I are very similar in ability.  I think at the last nationals he just crept into the Phantom top 10. I would love to see what the corrected times are off the correct handicaps (where the hell was 1035 from ha ha)   I suspect it will be pretty close which to me would suggest the PY's of both classes are not far out.  On our local River he has no chance against me, where we are very quick to manoeuvre and accelerate very quickly.  Not only that we can run by the lee.  In those instances the Zero is faster.  That said on a small lake, i probably wouldn't get near him as the Phantom can stretch its legs very quickly.  Something i have noticed though is just how much faster my brother is now sailing since shelling out (thousands) on a CST high Mod mast.  its like a different boat!  Sadly the mast cost nearly half as much as my complete Zero.

As for Blazes, I was really expecting them to blow all of us away.  F4 gusting with some wave pattern with long reaching legs i thought we were toast.  I was very surprised to find this not the case at all!  

Still Great weekend on the water.  Brilliant interfleet tussles, gave some credence to James Idea of scratch racing for me anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:04am
Originally posted by turnturtle

One of the ideas I had for this app would be that could re-order the boats by simply dragging and dropping..This would enable you sort the race order, more or less, ahead of the finish.


It doesn't seem to help nearly as much as you'd think it ought to... When I tried it the trouble with having folk in previous lap order or anything time based was that if someone was way out of position, after a capsize or something I had to go scanning the entire sheet to find them, which again escalated the stress levels... Its amazing how long it takes to resort a sheet by alphabetical order, find Mr Jones, and resort again by time, even if you've got sort buttons on the columns...

Its funny too how prone people are to finish in bunches. We do an annual event which is a lap of the reservoir round all the marks, best time wins, with everyone starting separately, and even with people encouraged to start at well spaced intervals some still finished in groups. The first time we did this I'd written a full on automated click start, click finish system with automated display of lap charts, the idea to be something like Formula One qualifying coverage, and it just fell to bits within the first hour with dead heats, people sailing through the line when they weren't starting or finishing and other stuff. I'd love to learn how the Formula One presentation is done in detail, but fear it just involves resources way beyond a typical club.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:10am
Originally posted by transient

Originally posted by Woodburner

Then why is there no transparency as to who this group are, I've heard lots of rumours plus the occasion post here from folk I immediately forget.




Do you seriously expect them to identify themselves..........I bloody wouldn't. Just think about all the irrational personal attacks they'd get from folk like yourself.

I'm here. Currently chair the PYAG. I'm not hiding, no reason to, I just don't come here or post that often anymore after personal attacks from a minority on this forum through open posts and PM's and no response from mods when I questioned it. It does feel a bit like a stuck record round here....

Oh and on another point a bit further up - everyone on the PY is enthusiastic and cares very much about the "system" otherwise we wouldn't be volunteering and putting up with all the sort of stuff that gets posted about us on here. Most of the other members are on this forum too and post from time to time, but they may not choose to identify themselves. Up to them if they do to be honest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:11am
hmmm... I guess another function could be a simple upper right hand search box..... if it's panic stations, even a partial sail number should reduce the display count down to two or three boats in most instances.  

But thanks again for responding.... i guess my idea would be much more graphical and far less spreadsheet like, but I appreciate this is all utterly speculative because I doubt the RYA would get buy-in to commission such a development even if they could green light the expenditure.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:46am
James, there are systems out there that do pretty much what you are saying. One such system was written by an old PYAG member for his club and I think it's the way some clubs will go in the future. Especially when adapted to work on tablets.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:51am
Originally posted by chrisg

...they may not choose to identify themselves.

And of course if we did regularly identify ourselves much the same people who make accusations of lack of transparency would make accusations of status hunting power crazed ego trippers and all the rest of it.

Edited by JimC - 13 May 15 at 12:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 15 at 11:57am
Hi Woodbotherer
Actually if you read my post I compared the Zero to the Blaze not the Phantom.
I believe you have no problem with the Blaze py.
Do me a favour and stop sl*gging of the volunteers who run the PY group whilst they dont get it right all the time they are working with the info clubs send in and that is done by mostly volunteers as well all trying to give us the best racing they can.
Gordon
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