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Laser International: Saving the Sport of Sailing i

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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Resin transfer moulding, usually an injection process, heavy, used in fin manufacture and cheap snowboards, Burton used to do it in Europe, after submitting their USA laminated boards for tests, they then built their RTM crap in Europe (it's also cheap).

Itís equivalent to wet lay vac lamination in terms of quality.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 5:29pm
Aero is going to go from 5 boats a week to Laser production figures virtually overnight ?
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 5:33pm
No. Olympic status will not mean 3000 units a year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Originally posted by iGRF

Resin transfer moulding, usually an injection process, heavy, used in fin manufacture and cheap snowboards, Burton used to do it in Europe, after submitting their USA laminated boards for tests, they then built their RTM crap in Europe (it's also cheap).

Itís equivalent to wet lay vac lamination in terms of quality.


Well it can be if the resin routing is good and the vaccuum application solid, which obviously cn't always be present in hard closed moulds like fins or capped snowboards.

Our high end kiteboards use exactly this procees but unbelievable lengths taken to ensure as much resin is removed after the transfer to keep the boards as light as possible, which, when you're asking over a grand and a quarter for a piece of carbon and epoxy under 1.5 mtrs x 40 odd centimetres is expected.

I wanted the deck of my boat built like it, not too much to ask..

Edited by iGRF - 04 Oct 18 at 5:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 6:15pm
Slightly off topic, 2 young Laser sailors been asked to sail in Star sailors league finals starting December.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 7:15pm
Chris 249 said:

" A couple of stick-on ergonomic aids (why not wedge-shaped foam hiking pads and a movement of the tiller pivot bolt) and other easy updates "

What do you mean by the tiller pivot bolt? What would be the other easy updates?
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Riv

Chris 249 said:

" A couple of stick-on ergonomic aids (why not wedge-shaped foam hiking pads and a movement of the tiller pivot bolt) and other easy updates "

What do you mean by the tiller pivot bolt? What would be the other easy updates?

I think he means fiddle with the rudder to make it more vertical, which would make the helm nice and light like a typical more modern boat. Bit of a detail really.
Personally I'd be tempted to support a whole new rig, but TBH the existing rig works better for squadies and olympians sailing at windy places than it does for us club sailors.
I've said before, the whole thing has become a slave to backward compatibility with 200k boats.
I'd like to give it two new ends and a new middle, but it's probably best to leave it be and sail something else if you don't like it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:26pm
So 1250 quid for a piece of foam and plastic the size of a dinghy centreboard is OK, but a similar-sized board (ie a dinghy centreboard) with a hull, rudder, rig and fittings thrown in should cost only 1500?

Jeezs, that's a lot of extra stuff to attach to your foam-and-plastic board for just 250 extra quid. It's such an easy way to make money I can't believe Grumpf hasn't already shown us how it's done.




Edited by Chris 249 - 04 Oct 18 at 9:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Riv

Chris 249 said:

" A couple of stick-on ergonomic aids (why not wedge-shaped foam hiking pads and a movement of the tiller pivot bolt) and other easy updates "

What do you mean by the tiller pivot bolt? What would be the other easy updates?

I think he means fiddle with the rudder to make it more vertical, which would make the helm nice and light like a typical more modern boat. Bit of a detail really.
Personally I'd be tempted to support a whole new rig, but TBH the existing rig works better for squadies and olympians sailing at windy places than it does for us club sailors.
I've said before, the whole thing has become a slave to backward compatibility with 200k boats.
I'd like to give it two new ends and a new middle, but it's probably best to leave it be and sail something else if you don't like it.

Yep, move the tiller pivot to make the rudder more vertical because that would be an easy way to remove one niggle with the boat.

Once you give it a new rig, what happens?  I'm looking to get back into the class reasonably seriously, so I assume I'd need a new rig for championships. So does that mean I don't get to practise with it at my local club against other new rigs?  Does it mean the entire club has to change over? What happens at local regattas? Do we have a new rig fleet and an old rig fleet for Radials, standards and 4.7s?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 18 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

If any of the other 3 boats are selected it will have precisely zero effect on participation in developing or poorer nations.
Reason being ws, whether by luck or design, have chosen designs that all are directly transferrable from laser as a sailing proposition, right down to optimum weights. The results of any racing between any set of sailors would be identical whether in aero zero or m14.
If you are seriously campaigning for the games, the cost of chopping in a newish laser for a new aero zero m14 is probs sub 5% of your annual campaign costs. From there on any of these classes will actually cost you less year on year in wear and tear.
Kit would be supplied at olympics and possibly even worlds as charters.
Hell you could quite happily train and compete locally in a laser and jump in the aero zero m14 the week before the games and I guarantee it would not change your result. Sure you have to qualify your country etc but if you are travelling internationally to train and compete then boat cost at least for any of these is almost irrelevant.
This isnít a structural step change in sailing of the sort seen when the 49er came in, ie people having to learn to sail again.
Similarly the nacra and 49er demonstrates that stuff at prototype level can get to the games as long as ws is satisfied that the manufacturer can satisfy demand / have capacity and in this case through local licences builders. Canít see this being a problem for any of the three pretenders as all are in full production, all of which is fully scaleable perhaps with the exception of aero where the rtm process and assoc toolinh costs may mke it a challenge, but letís face it the Olympic spot would male it a straightforward investment for any of them.

With respect, Dan, if the idea of sailing a Laser and then switching into the Olympic boat in the last week was practical, why does no one seem to have done it with the Europe?  Why did no one stick to training on the Windsurfer when the Windglider was selected? Why did no one keep on training their Mistral M1 and Crits when the Lechner A390 windsurfer (which was from the same development class) was selected? Why did people not keep on sailing other brands of Raceboard when the Mistral IMCO Raceboard was selected?  Why did no one down here, where you didn't "have to learn a new form of sailing" to get onto a 49er, sail their Aussie 14 or 12 Foot Skiff and then hop onto a 49er at the last moment?

Surely you won't just step from a Laser into a new boat and instantly have all the correct ooches, the perfect sail trim, the perfect acceleration off a start line and the ultimate roll tacks correct instantly? Surely you'll have to do what just about everyone seems to do, and have a training boat of the new type, plus other new boats for your a training partner or squad, plus a bunch of spares. That's a shedload of cash for a country like Fiji.

What about the kids who are trying to work out whether they will get serious and want to sail against Olympians a bit? What about the Olympian's training partners? My mate who was training partner for the bronze medallist certainly didn't have the cost of a new boat sitting in his pocket, bursting to get out. 

It seems from your maths that you are looking only at the Olympic competitors with budgets of around $100,000 USA a year. They appear to be very few and far between if we move away from a small bunch of affluent countries. As I understand it from Olympians, even in Oz many Olympians run on lower budgets than that - we have Olympians whose parents are teaching assistants and cleaners and they didn't have the cost of a Melges 14 sitting in their ashtray. A quick check shows countries where the entire Olympic association team budget (not just the sailing team, the entire Olympic team budget) is $2 million US p.a. 

It's always easy for us to tell other people they should spend money. It may be easier to accept the "it's only a few thou" message if those promoting the change were each willing to give up a similar amount of cash themselves for a fund for sailing in developing nations - after all, why should the "it's only a few thou" attitude only apply when the cash is going one way? Confused

And what is the outcome? We suddenly have not a single class in the entire sport in which club competitors frequently use the same kit as Olympians. Why is that a good thing? 

The developing nations voted against the Europe and for the Radial on the same sort of grounds, and hopefully they will do the same thing again.

PS - I just noticed that there's about 19 national sailing federations who owe ISAF on their annual dues. If an entire national body can't scrape up a few hundred Euros then how will the members of their squads find thousands?


Edited by Chris 249 - 04 Oct 18 at 9:44pm
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