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Double points race tie brake

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Double points race tie brake
    Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 9:53am
One race in a series is a double pointer, no discard. 

From the SI's:
17.2.3 When all three races have been completed on Sunday, a boat’s score will be the total of her best two race scores on Sunday and double her score from the pursuit race.

From RRS Appendix A:
A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boat’s 
race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first 
point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour 
of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be 
used.

If two boats are tied on points, how is the pursuit race treated in the count-back? Does a 1st place in pursuit double up to be two 1st? Or does winning the pursuit count a second place? Or does it count as one 1st place? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:10am
Sounds as if they need to write their own tiebreak rule. On the face of it the appendix says put the scores in order not the places... So a second in the other races is the same as a win in the last. What do the SIs for the Olympics say about ties?


Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 18 at 10:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:21am
Unless the SIs say otherwise, what matters so far as A8.1 is concerned is race scores, not race positions. The boat that wins the pursuit race has a score of 2 points for that race (i.e. equivalent to second place in any other race so far as A8.1 is concerned).

I appreciate that this may not produce the result that you would expect (or want), but unless the SIs say otherwise that is how it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:47am
I checked the Rio SIs. they did indeed have a special rule. Ties were decided on the medal race positions only for boats in the medal race, and on standard tiebreak excluding the medal race for the others, and boats that tied in the medal race.

All tiebreaks are arbitary by their nature, its hard to say one is wrong or right. I agree with GML about how the SI and RRS 8.1 appear to work together.

Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 18 at 10:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:59am
The medal race format has an SI which breaks ties by the medal race position. So no need for count-back unless there is a dead heat finish in the medal race between two boats which are also on equal points overall. 

This was for RS EoS. 

I think the SI's should have been more explicit. It seems they thought about how the pursuits should count in terms of points, but not how it would work in terms of breaking ties.

It's pretty clear that the idea is that pursuit counts double, because it's a 2 hour race taking a whole race day, whereas the three other races are 30-40 minutes. So, if it counts double, shouldn't it count as two race wins in terms of count-back? 

I'm not sure how they decided to do it. There were two fleets with the same tiebreak and the prize-giving gave the results opposite in each fleet. 

Odd situation. But interesting! I guess it's good we all had such close racing!




Edited by mozzy - 05 Nov 18 at 11:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:07am
Originally posted by mozzy

So, if it counts double, shouldn't it count as two race wins in terms of count-back?

You can argue it both ways. You can also argue that its overemphasised because it counts double, so making the other races count more in a tie break redresses the balance a bit in favour of consistency. Ultimately all tie breaks are arbitary, and serve mainly to enable the organisers to order the right glassware!

Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 18 at 11:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:20am
Yeah, swings and round-a-bouts. 

In our case we were only tied on points because of the double value of the pursuit. Taking raw positions alone we should have been a point behind. So it seems to add a lot of emphasis on the pursuit so count it double for the points total and count it as two race win for count-back. On the other hand it was a full days sailing and in duration was as long as the three Sunday races combined. 

The event has been running in this format for a few years, this is the first time they've had a tie-break, and it happens for 1st place in two fleets! 

Whats odd was that they broke the tie in the other way for the RS200s.


Edited by mozzy - 05 Nov 18 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 1:27pm
Just get over it and have less points next time  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 1:57pm
but, but, but... it hurts so much  Cry

In truth we never thought we won... but it was sorta funny as I was chatting the RS200 boys speculating about the scoring before the prize-giving and came to conclusion that they won and we came 2nd (in respective fleets)... only for us both to come 2nd in a complete contravention of logic! 

Maybe they flipped a coin in the race box?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:03pm
Well, if they've scored the tie break differently for two classes then you'd think one of them must be wrong... A scoring error should always be corrected, there's no time limit as there is with a protest or redress hearing. (RRS 90.3).

Are the results on line somewhere? Rutland's web site appears to be sick.

Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 18 at 2:04pm
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