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Post Options Post Options   Quote Henmch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Start of race
    Posted: 16 May 19 at 1:56pm
Two dinghies are approaching the committee boat end of a starting line in a force 2. A is the windward boat and is about 3/4 boat length to windward of B who has an overlap. They are on Parallel courses. A is in an unfavourable position in close proximity to the committee boat. B ( the leeward boat) doesn’t indicate that they are going to luff until they are in a position where A cannot respond due to their closeness to the committee boat.
A is obviously not entitled to mark room but is unable to “bail out” of the start by the time B starts to luff. What should A’s response be?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:35pm
I read something similar in a Y&Y article just the other day from Mark Rushall about a similar incident. I'l see if I can find it

The big tell tale sign if A is trying to keep clear is rudder position. If the rudder is trying to bear the boat off then they aren't doing enough to keep clear. If the rudder is on the centre line but they are basically touching the CV A is safe as it can not do anything more. If A's rudder is trying to head up then they are doing all they can to keep clear.

Key words as always are Time and Opportunity


Edited by ClubRacer - 16 May 19 at 6:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:42pm


Edited by ClubRacer - 16 May 19 at 6:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:29am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
Key words as always are Time and Opportunity

NO THEY ARE NOT.

These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.

All the words you need are in the definition of Room:

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 8:43am
To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
Key words as always are Time and Opportunity


NO THEY ARE NOT.
These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.
All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isn’t a sufficient way to summarise that definition?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:30am
Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 10:29am
Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 

OP scenario was that B changes course to windward (luffs) A into the committee vessel.

I agree that this doesn't look like a rule 15 situation, but it certainly is a rule 16.

If a does her best to keep clear of B, but is unable to do so [without touching the committee vessel], then she is being denied room to keep clear, and sailing within the room to which she is entitled and exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21).  That would be A's protest.

B could certainly protest if she thought that A could have kept clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by Brass


All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isn’t a sufficient way to summarise that definition?

Originally posted by JimC

Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.

Also, the focus of the definition of Room is on space not on time.

While I wasn't much involved in rules in 1995, I think that removal of references to 'opportunity' was intended to remove any idea that hailing was a required component of an entitlement to room.
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