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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 12:59pm
If there's tide pushing the boats away from the mark there's quite often room to nip in safely. In such circumstances I once shouted back "I agree, I've got no rights at all". If you've got tide pushing boats towards the mark, on the other hand, then its very very high risk.
The point to remember is that you owe mark room to every boat that was clear ahead of you when they entered the zone. Its not just that you don't have mark room, its that they do.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote elzorillo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by jeffers


That said there is nothing stopping you following the inside boat through as long as you do not impede any of the other boats (i.e. you make sure you keep clear).


But is this the case? Had I followed the line of the boat nearest the mark.. and assuming all boats after making the rounding were pointing as high as possible, I would have not impeded any boat, as (excluding the boat I'm following) none of them would desire to or are able to tack to starbord due to there being a boat directly to their windward side. Yet I also clearly didnt have room at the mark.. so... is shouty red boat correct? do I have to sail right around the back of all the boats or can I round the mark following the nearest boat? I'm still not 100% clear on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 1:45pm
Mozzy described the likely situation well. No two roundings are the same. You need to make a last minute call on whether you are going to get away with it. If all the boats in your diagram continue to round the mark overlapped with one another you would probably be all right. But if the red boat slows until he can avoid the transom of the boats to windward of him and sails to round close to the mark, you would have to keep clear of him. He may be thinking of doing that if he can and that's why he is shouty.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by elzorillo

do I have to sail right around the back of all the boats or can I round the mark following the nearest boat? I'm still not 100% clear on this.

Probably good to read case 63 in the case book

Linked from here...

Basically you can nip through at your own risk, but if you impede any boat that you owe mark room from sailing its desired proper course then you must take a penalty. And if even after taking turns you still come out ahead of where you would have been if you'd sailed round legally then you must retire. Its a very high risk manouver.

Edited by JimC - 11 Sep 19 at 2:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 2:53pm
In case 63 why doesn't B protest A instead of C? 

Boat A surely took more room than she needed to sail the course, as evidenced by another boat being able to fit through the gap. Surely that's an open and closed protest against A? I think B protested the wrong boat. 


Edited by mozzy - 11 Sep 19 at 2:54pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

 And if even after taking turns you still come out ahead of where you would have been if you'd sailed round legally then you must retire. Its a very high risk manouver.

Can you expand on the Jim? I do not see that as part of case 63 anywhere.

If green (in this case) gets it wrong and infringes any of the other boats the penalty as defined is a 2 tack 2 gybe (effectively 720).

The only way a retirement could be forced would be for one of the other boat to protest them under rule 2 which would be a bit harsh.

Green should be on standby to either bail out to avoid infringing or be prepared to take a penalty if they do. Yes it is a risky thing to do but it pays off more often than not in my experience.

The rules do state contact should be avoided where possible and you should give room and protest.

Red could leave themselves open to a protest against intimidating behaviour depending on the nature of the shouting as well.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Can you expand on the Jim? I do not see that as part of case 63 anywhere.

44.1(b)
if the boat ... despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.


Barging inside a mark log jam is one of the most likely situations for that to occur. The thing to do, if you do get caught out is of course to take your penalty extremely slowly so that every boat that was ahead of you gets past again.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers


Can you expand on the Jim? I do not see that as part of case 63 anywhere.

44.1(b)
if the boat ... despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.


Barging inside a mark log jam is one of the most likely situations for that to occur. The thing to do, if you do get caught out is of course to take your penalty extremely slowly so that every boat that was ahead of you gets past again.



Interesting to know that. It would also depend on how 'significant' the advantage would need to be. I would not say that staying ahead after turn could be considered significant, the other boats may have decided to have a luffing match and end up stopping. 

It is a subjective thing, who can persuade the PC.....
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 5:32pm
And on whom is the onus of proof (I know there is no onus of proof but the rules usually suggest a presumption one way or the other as in rule 18.2 e "
  1. If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an

    overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not."

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 19 at 5:40pm
And I have seen often the Superstars after a rare bad start or technical problem, when playing " catch up", will avoid the scrum, sail fast and wide whilst us " normal " sailors are calling for room and searching for gaps!
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