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A2Z View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 1:47pm
A new LP boat is a class legal boat, but for the TLC class rather than the ILCA class. I wonder how many clubs have rules so carefully worded that they allow one and prohibit the other in what might generically be called the ďLaser fleetĒ.  I know mine doesnít. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 2:18pm
True but TLC is a new class , with no paying members , no constitution and has not run an event anywhere. Throw in a builder selling boats at cost and the ongoing court case in the USA ( Jim C is the expert on this ) I know which one I would bet on , long term.
But on the other hand I am sure we will be seeing the new LPE boats around boats parks for years to come . As I said itís all very sad and I am glad I no longer have a connection with the class so donít have a dog in this fight .  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 2:26pm
Totally agree, just pointing out that most club fleets donít have written rules linking them to ILCA so it would be dodgy ground banning TLC boats joining in.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 3:25pm
I wonder if someone would be good enough to supply a glossary to us ill informed regarding all facts Laser and the various acronyms and initals.

ILCA
TLC
LP
LPE
FRAND
???

Probably to much to ask how it got to be the mess that it's now in, I gave up following after the Torch affair.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 5:04pm


ILCA
1. International Laser Class Association. Certificates boats built by long term Australian and Japanese builders plus new builders entering the market eg Devoti, Ovington.
2. New class name for boats certificated by the ILCA.

TLC
The Laser Class
Organisation set up, apparently with money from Laser Performance LLC, by some disaffected officers from ILCA and other national laser class associations. Talks big about becoming a new international class, but that won't happen unless ILCA actually collapses since World Sailing won't support two CAs. Certificates new Laser Performance LLC Lasers.

LP
Probably Laser Performance LLC. US registered company that builds dinghies using the Laser trademark in Europe. Set up fairly recently.

LPE
Laser Performance Europe. Dormant company that used to build Lasers. No capital, no employees. Lost long running court case and owes millions in fines.

FRAND
Principle resulting from European competition legislation that has the effect of requiring Olympic class dinghies to be able to be sold by new vendors under fair and reasonable terms from the intellectual property owners.

Edited by JimC - 03 Oct 20 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Rupert

Do I assume that even a club which doesn't allow replica sails would allow a Laser, built by Laser, to race as a Laser, even if the world governing body says only the version named after themselves can be used?

If a club doesn't allow replica Laser sails why on earth would they allow replica Laser hulls?
How many boats racing at typical club racing level have a valid measurement certificate, with the owner a being member of the class association?
(Not many at our club)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by JimC



ILCA
1. International Laser Class Association. Certificates boats built by long term Australian and Japanese builders plus new builders entering the market eg Devoti, Ovington.
2. New class name for boats certificated by the ILCA.

TLC
The Laser Class
Organisation set up, apparently with money from Laser Performance LLC, by some disaffected officers from ILCA and other national laser class associations. Talks big about becoming a new international class, but that won't happen unless ILCA actually collapses since World Sailing won't support two CAs. Certificates new Laser Performance LLC Lasers.

LP
Probably Laser Performance LLC. US registered company that builds dinghies using the Laser trademark in Europe. Set up fairly recently.

LPE
Laser Performance Europe. Dormant company that used to build Lasers. No capital, no employees. Lost long running court case and owes millions in fines.

FRAND
Principle resulting from European competition legislation that has the effect of requiring Olympic class dinghies to be able to be sold by new vendors under fair and reasonable terms from the intellectual property owners.


Thanks Jim, so TLC, is that a rogue organisation set up by the previous incumbents of Laser Production? In reality how are anybody really going to know which is which, especially considering the usual dinghy owners propensity for least cost routing to hardware acquisition.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:43pm
Provided you are racing in handicap races, either boat can race, neither are trying to pretend they are anything else, boats without a PY or class association are allowed to sail,can't see Any club preventing a 'Laser' or a'ILCA' from racing along side each other, just put them down has 'Bruce Kirby' designed single hander.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Thanks Jim, so TLC, is that a rogue organisation set up by the previous incumbents of Laser Production? .

Its awfully hard to separate fact, fiction and propaganda, but my impression is that there was a faction in ILCA and the Italian Laser Association that strongly disagreed with dumping Laser Performance LLC, and its that faction that has set up this organisation. Those folks are presumably the ones who had the closest ties with the Laser Performance companies, and LP were doubtless happy to assist them.

There's a lot of complicated history. One is that there have, I understand, recently been big disagreements within the Italian Laser CA which involved the long standing CA being unrecognised by the Italian National authority and being replaced by a new Association that was set up in competition. Another is that Laser Performance fairly recently had a big row with the International Sunfish Class Association (LP build the Sunfish) and set up an alternate Sunfish Assoc on the lines of TLC, but that was abandoned when they made up relations with the real Sunfish CA.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 20 at 7:57pm
Are the same people making sails for the Laser and the ILCA? Just one with buttons and the other without? And several ILCA builders? I really can't see any club barring one with its head up its arse turning someone away because they have the "wrong" Laser.
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