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Room for an obstruction

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Room for an obstruction
    Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

how would you find if the did laser tack as soon as possible?


Gather and weigh the evidence.

It may help if you reframe 'Did Laser tack as soon as possible' (or 'immeidately' or 'promptly' if you come across them) as 'Did Laser tack without unreasonable delay'. You can then further decompose this into:
  • Did Laser tack immediately/without any delay?

  • If there was delay, how long was the delay?

  • What were the reasons for the delay

  • Were the reasons 'reasonable'?
.

Ask Laser what he or she did when she heard the hail?

Ask Laser when she tacked/how long after the hail she tacked?

Remember Solo has her back to the action and is probably concentrating on the approaching obstruction and handling her boat.

Ask Solo what she was doing immediately after she hailed?

Ask Solo whether she saw Laser begin to tack?

Ask Solo when/how long after the hail she saw the Laser was tacking.

Ask similar questions of any witnesses.

Assume everybody is telling the truth unless and until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Did solo Hail soon enough 


Case 54 Answer 1 tells us what is the soonest that Solo is entitled to hail.

Answer 2, last sentence tells us how much time Solo must allow Laser to respond.

After that, any lateness in Solo's hail is going to be Solo's problem.

Edited by Brass - 25 Sep 20 at 11:06am
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Nacnud_smada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 8:01am
very good.. 

one thought, is how would you find if the did laser tack as soon as possible?
or 
Did solo Hail soon enough 
as this was also something we spoke about on the night?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:42am
If Laser chooses to tack, and does so as soon as possible, she doesn't need to say a word. It's up to Solo to keep her wits about her and know what's going on.

If Laser tacks as soon as possible that completely discharges her obligation under rule 20.2(c). She has no obligation under rule 20.2 to give Solo any room.

Only if Laser responds by hailing 'you tack' is she then required to give Solo room to tack and avoid her.

So, once Laser tacks, rule 20 is over and done with and we are looking at a brand new incident: both boats tacking, then contact, which is going to depend on rules 11, 12 or 13 and rule 15.

And if your question was What should Solo do if Laser does not respond to her hail?, then Case 54 Answer 3 is the answer.


Edited by Brass - 25 Sep 20 at 7:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:34am
I think this just answered my above question dont you 

Question 3
What should A do if B does not respond to her hail?
Answer 3
Although the rule only requires one hail, if time permits it is prudent for A to repeat her hail. The lack of a response from B does not mean that A must hold her course. If needed, A should avoid the obstruction in the safest manner, which may include luffing up to head to wind or gybing. A can then protest if B has not responded as required by rule 20.2(
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:25am
Thank you Brass,  this is just what i needed. 
one question which will come back when we have another chat about this, is... what if laser says he did tack straight away ( but did not hail tacking, we know that) and there was impact... 

would the laser be in the wrong for not giving enough room? breaking rule 20? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:01pm
Duncan's original query revolved around Solo giving 'time to respond' (rule 20.2(a), and Laser tacking 'as soon as possible' (rule 20.2(c)).

Case 54 puts it very neatly

When the boats are clearly approaching an obstruction at which A will need room to tack, B must be alert to the situation and anticipate a hail from A. Anticipation is necessary because rule 20.2(c) requires B to respond either by immediately replying ‘You tack’ or by tacking as soon as possible. If B does not immediately hail ‘You tack’, A must give B the time required for a competent, but not expert, crew to prepare for and execute her tack in a seamanlike manner as soon as possible in the prevailing conditions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:42pm
Thanks Brass for pointing to 101, I tried to find an appeal case but couldn't find an appropriate one
Happily living in the past
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:08pm
Boom. thank you. all very simple really.. hahah thank you 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Yes it very interesting, thank you for your time with it. Laser did say they tacked asap after hail... Solo did not slam in a tack.. solo waited for response. and heard not so tack..  no would where the impact on the boat now become relevant? as this i do not know..


If Laser tacked as soon as possible after the hail, she has complied with her obligation under rule 20.2(c), and that's the end of rule 20, and now we're back to pure right of way.

So contact occurred after both boats had passed head to wind from starboard onto port.

If neither had reached her close hauled course, then Solo will be on Laser's port side and is required to keep clear (rule 13 last sentence).

If Solo has reached her close hauled course and Laser has not, then Laser is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If Solo has not reached her close hauled course and Laser has, then Solo is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If both have reached close hauled, then I'm guessing contact was Solo's bow to Lasers port transom corner, in which case Solo was overlapped to windward on same tack as Laser, and required to keep clear.



Edited by Brass - 24 Sep 20 at 2:06pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Similar situation the other day ... two boats sailing to windward on starboard with a couple of boat lengths separation, leeward calls "room" as a precursor to tacking then completes tack onto port at which point starboard tack boat calls him back onto port.

So S did not tack and did not hail 'you tack'. S broke rule 20.2(c).
Originally posted by davidyacht


If the windward boat had responded by saying "you tack" does the windward boat give away the right to call the leeward boat back onto starboard?

Absloutely not. See Case 101
Originally posted by davidyacht

How close does a hailed boat have to be to be obligated to respond?

Within hail?
Originally posted by davidyacht


Does a boat that does not need to respond have to either hail or manoeuvre even if the hail is opportunistic and unnecessary?

If she hears the hail she must respond (rule 20.2(b)).

IF she thinks she is far enough away that she need do nothing, her response is to hail 'you tack' immediately.

Edited by Brass - 24 Sep 20 at 1:53pm
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