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tink View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 6:49am
Can anyone name a sport where a novice, Sunday warriors, and world champions all compete together at the same time in the same race using widely different equipment. PY system might not be perfect but what it achieves is pretty awesome. 

Each class will have its ideal conditions and there is not a lot that can be done about it. As people have said length is the key indicator of speed followed by sail area, and weight but there other variables that are more subtle. The Streaker for example has appalling dagger board (flat boards with a bit of shape front and back). 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 8:33am
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  

Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal.

As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. 

Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk  Wink

OK hands up I will admit to that troll - sorry! It is a theory that has been talked about over the years and I have genuinely heard it repeated a number of times, but I do not believe it. Was just feeling mischievous, aorry all, back in my box  Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:21am
At risk of being told I'm "part of the system", or whatever, I don't think the Portsmouth Yardstick is broken at all. Can it deliver fair racing across all types of water in all wind conditions? Of course it can't. Can it get pretty damn close to this over a series of races in varied conditions in one location. Yes.
If you decide to sail a Musto Skiff on a 10 acre lake, or a British Moth on the North Sea, will you get the same results as you would if you swapped the boats? No, of course not. But either the club could tweak the yardstick, or common sense on the part of the sailor could prevail.

That it's been running in a recognisable format for nigh on 70 years despite people whinging about bandits that other people sail and how harshly "their" boat is treated, suggests to me that it's a pretty fine system.

Edited by Rupert - 20 Nov 20 at 9:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:41am
Spot on Rupert 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 9:53am
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change.

I agree, but its a circular argument. Theres no will because there's no perceived significant benefit. 

Status quo and all that... 


You hit the nail on the head there.

That aside "Perceived significant benefit" is totally subjective. There are many that believe the system needs overhauling but institutionalised conservative thinking will never provide the will to do it.

Having said that....

Originally posted by tink

Can anyone name a sport where a novice, Sunday warriors, and world champions all compete together at the same time in the same race using widely different equipment. 
 
Yes Tink, I'm missing it dreadfully but it is a small pond and it's getting smaller as we speak so now is definitely not the time to go rocking the boat.


Edited by Sussex Lad - 20 Nov 20 at 9:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Rupert

At risk of being told I'm "part of the system", or whatever, I don't think the Portsmouth Yardstick is broken at all. Can it deliver fair racing across all types of water in all wind conditions? Of course it can't. Can it get pretty damn close to this over a series of races in varied conditions in one location. Yes.
If you decide to sail a Musto Skiff on a 10 acre lake, or a British Moth on the North Sea, will you get the same results as you would if you swapped the boats? No, of course not. But either the club could tweak the yardstick, or common sense on the part of the sailor could prevail.

That it's been running in a recognisable format for nigh on 70 years despite people whinging about bandits that other people sail and how harshly "their" boat is treated, suggests to me that it's a pretty fine system.

Spot on +2 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:25am
"Institutionalized conservative thinking". Or perhaps what we have is better than the alternatives being suggested?

Easy enough to find out. Get several clubs (actually, just individuals at clubs) to run whatever the New Improved system is, whether it is simply fiddling with the data in a different way, or creating a measurement system, in parallel to the existing system. Study the results for maybe 3 seasons, and see whether the results seem more fair or logical. If running a measurement system, see if anyone modifies or builds a boat to beat it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:37am
........and as the pond gets smaller so the contents get more distilled, more refined with fewer nuances.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:40am
I completely agree Rupert - it's not a perfect system, because such a thing will never exist.


If anyone gets *that* upset about the PY system's failings (of which it has plenty), then perhaps that person needs to reassess their ambitions.....  If you're getting so bent out of shape about the system 'working against you' in your battle to win a tiny wooden trophy at Icklepond SC, perhaps you need to remind yourself that we do this for fun.  And if you're frustrated that your peerless talent is being downtrodden by this unfair system, then perhaps you should do like a huge number of sailors, and view Club PY racing as just training sessions to prepare you for the real and fair challenge of Class racing on the Open circuit.


Don't get me wrong.... there's absolutely nothing wrong with having Club PY racing as the focus of your (sporting) life - I've done this in numerous period of my life and thoroughly enjoyed it (for what it is), but if the PY system feels like it's ruining your (sporting) life, perhaps it's time for a different perspective. 


Edited by Bootscooter - 20 Nov 20 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:45am
on the whole what I think you see with the PY moaners is that it is broke, rubbish, etc, without ever providing a suitable alternative that is superior to it. Yes it has its flaws, but a lot of that is down to boats that are binary in their performance, such as the BM and the Contender, etc, which will always skew the numbers. But unless you as a club are prepared to change the numbers to suit your water and also take into account changing them for the wind strength each week, and perhaps between races too, you are always doomed to failure, oh and don't forget to add in the personal handicaping as well. Stop moaning about it and start sailing. I sail a boat that is hard to perform to its PY (or so I'm told), but perhaps its because I'm not as good as those sailing the boats that beat me. Or is it their boats are better suited to the water we sail. I don't know, I don't care, I just enjoy having a race against them and every now and again getting a little closer to them, or god forbid actually beating them. PY racing is all I have and I love sailing against the different boats, it makes it far more interesting than that boring fleet racing.
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