New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Dinghies in 2020
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Dinghies in 2020

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2223242526 34>
Author
tack'ho View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1100
Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 5:13pm

Originally posted by turnturtle

that's what I was thinking... last time I sailed a L2 (not too dissimilar really)
in those kind of winds only 1/5th of us finished the race with boats intact,
the rest were scattered and shattered all over Plymouth Harbour.

Student National 1997, a year of carnage.

Remember that well, I was on the comittee boat after we snapped the furball mast the day before!  Loads of folks abandoning boats, I lept in and sailed two L2s in after their crews got picked up by safety boats.  Once the squwall was through it was only a 4-5. 

I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
Back to Top
English Dave View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 06
Location: Northern Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 682
Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 7:20pm

Just wondering why we are arguing about a boat's performance in a F6. Of course, boats can be sailed in all conditions (in theory) but no competent RO would set a course above a F5 (and only then in flat water). A F6 is a "hang on for dear life" conditions and doesn't adequately reflect a boat's abilities. You want to tell me you can be fully controlled in a F6 at all times and I'll argue that you are carrying 4m on a wave-board.

It's like comparing a Mini to a Ferrari on the basis of them both driving off a cliff.

And we are discussing racing dinghies instead.

English Dave
Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700
Back to Top
Smight at BBSC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 07
Location: Great Britain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1127
Post Options Post Options   Quote Smight at BBSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by English Dave

Just wondering why we are arguing about a boat's performance in a F6. Of course, boats can be sailed in all conditions (in theory) but no competent RO would set a course above a F5 (and only then in flat water). A F6 is a "hang on for dear life" conditions and doesn't adequately reflect a boat's abilities. You want to tell me you can be fully controlled in a F6 at all times and I'll argue that you are carrying 4m on a wave-board.

It's like comparing a Mini to a Ferrari on the basis of them both driving off a cliff.

And we are discussing racing dinghies instead.

 

I'm pretty sure the top level sailors could argue to be in complete control in a force 6. Arguably you don't need complete control, just enough so that the boat isn't controling you.

RS600 988
Back to Top
G.R.F. View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 08
Location: United Kingdom/Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4027
Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Peaky

NS14s in strong winds:





Force 5, no more.

Originally posted by hollandsd


this is me and andrew out in 30knots




It barely hit 24 kts that day, top end of a five again.

Originally posted by Skiffybob

This thread's taken a funny turn (seeing as it was supposed to be about dinghies in the future)


Anyhow just going back to the comments about skiffs not being able to sail in F6 winds, these pictures were taken at Weston last year when the racing
was cancelled because it was steady 27-30kts (F6) with gusts to 35kts (F7).






Windy but sheltered water and a clear example of plate/kite induced tail walking out of control.

Surely what you want is a single hander that can be controlled in a force six without those shenanigans and could possibly hit 30 knots, without worrying
about pitch poling, tail walking caviation and spin out, like a 4 mtr racing sailboard.

Well that's what I want from a boat in the future
Back to Top
Smight at BBSC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 07
Location: Great Britain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1127
Post Options Post Options   Quote Smight at BBSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 10:41pm

erm......................link your knottage is a bit out chap

If you wanna do 30knots just get on your windsurfer. If you want to sail singlehanded dinghies then you can pretty much forget 30knots and 25 off foils is servely pushing it. There's too much drag from a single hander . A moth is fast becasue its on the foils.



Edited by Smight at BBSC
RS600 988
Back to Top
G.R.F. View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 08
Location: United Kingdom/Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4027
Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 09 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Smight at BBSC

There's too much drag from a single hander .


That's where design comes in.

Stepped hulls, inverse chines, plenty of hulls plane at 30 knots,
sailboards didn't start off doing 30 kts they were the same speed as
dinghies, they just developed further faster, whereas Dinghies developed
faster in light winds by being over powered which then required more
weight to hold them down and as I've said before all the design thinking
has always been a bit single track, no-one really thinks out of the box.

Sailboards didn't have mast tracks or retracting centreboards or the rest
of the paraphenalia until we tried it.

This thread is about 2020, I'd hope by then we would have a s/h dinghy
capable of 30 kts speed, it's simply about controlling the power and
matching it to the planing area of the hull and ensuring one reduces as
the other increases.

Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 09 at 12:54am
Stepped hulls, inverse chines and flat rocker increase drag at low speeds,
like the Warp X380 shows*.

You're right, you don't have innovations unless you try things, but the
dinghies have also had a huge number of innovations over the past few
decades; hydrofoils, wings, assymetric spinnakers, high-tension rigs,
floppy-top rigs, floppy-bottom rigs, tunnel hulls, short hulls, long hulls,
scow hulls, skinny hulls....

And dinghies didn't just develop as you claim - most of the most
advanced ones are no more "overpowered" in light
winds these days than they were years ago, and they often need LESS
weight to hold them down these days.

And is there much evidence to show that boards developed further faster
in terms of speed around the course over the normal dinghy course? As
you say, when the boards came out they were about the same speed as a
comparable dinghy (ie Laser or Moth). Now the most radical course-
racing board (Formula) is a bit faster than the fastest comparable dinghy
(Moth) in medium to strong winds, but in the light stuff the Moth is miles
quicker.

So some boards are faster in a breeze than the dinghies; that's no great
drama since something like an MPS is much quicker in the light stuff than
a (non-pumping) board.

Respect is due all-round, and since the boats ARE advancing as quickly as
the boards it seems that there's not as much space for speed
improvements in 11 years as you think. And maybe we should applaud
the dinghies for maintaining their racing numbers better than boards did,
and learn from that.

PS

Yes, boards have developed more than dinghies for strictly medium to big
wind sailing on open water, but that's because that's an aspect of sailing
that dinghies rarely bother about. It would be interesting to see just what
30 years of developing dinghies to go down a speed course would have
produced.


*For non-windsurfers, that's a long Raceboard with a step at the back. It
also has an infill piece that you leave out for strong winds, but put in
place for light winds to give the board a normal even rocker line, which is
a recognition of the fact that steps are slow in the light. Great board, but
maybe not the most practical idea for dinghies.

Edited by Chris 249
Back to Top
simonjohn View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 Jul 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Post Options Post Options   Quote simonjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 09 at 8:11am
Might be more practical for dinghies: they have the space, and can carry the weight, for some kind of adjustable on-the-move hull profile. Marine equivalent of the swing wing? 
Back to Top
DaveT View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 31 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 76
Post Options Post Options   Quote DaveT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 09 at 8:29am

http://www.htsboarderdivision.com/videos/HTS%20Boards%20Wave %20Radical-WR%20Line/HTS-Video-Player.html

Its being tried on boards but for different reasons, interesting but unlikely ever to be practical on a boat

Back to Top
Skiffybob View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 04 Dec 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 842
Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffybob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 09 at 8:46am

Quote - "Windy but sheltered water and a clear example of plate/kite induced tail walking out of control."

GRF, you don't have talk c**p somtimes. The nose-up is a result of lift from the kite, and the boats were in complete control (only 1 boat capsized once, beause a toe loop let go).

Anyway, I agree with BBSC about the "F6 obsession". The average wind speed in this country is about 8-14kts, so what you really want is a boat that's optimised for that. This then makes them over-powered in a F6 (unless you have multiple rigs of course).

At the end of the day, a good boat goes well on "the majority" of days, so most classes are designed to work well in 5-20kts (with best performance at the 10-15kt range), which in this country is the right answer, hence why most hull shapes are quite moderate with quite a bit of rocker and curvature.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2223242526 34>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy