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What gives a boat 'height'?

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ellistine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 9:54am
Thanks Roy. I'll have a look at lunchtime.
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Roy Race View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Great bit of video... all I'd add
is the 470 has the kicker set to control sail shape.
Which is quite different to how <span ="bold">ellistine
</span>was sailing.


Fair enough. I've never sailed a Vago, but a lot of the
principles will apply, whether you achieve leech tension
with the kicker or the mainsheet.

The principles are:

Helm to sit still.
Stop adjusting the mainsheet when it's not necessary.
Steer in a straight line!
Division of labour: Make it the crew's job to keep the
boat flat through gust/lull cycles. After all, they have
a trapeze and you don't. That's what it's there for!
Trust them to do this job and make it easier for them by
steering straight, not adjusting the main and sitting
still.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 10:00am
Topic: What gives a boat ’height’?

Answer:
1. Sound sailing technique
2. The rig / foils / other stuff
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ellistine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 10:06am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

all I'd add
is the 470 has the kicker set to control sail shape.
Which is quite different to how ellistine
was sailing.

This is also an area of slight concern. The Vago normally
has a horse/strop with it's height set to be block to
block. Even though I could adjust the height before
launching, it never seemed to be in the right place. The
kicker would obviously move the height of the blocks and
switching between the XD sail and the standard main would
also mean a re-adjustment.

I've recently ditched this in favor of a split tail main
sheet so it's always centered without going block to
block and I can also then control leach tension with the
main sheet (all very "Higher and Faster"!).

Previously I had been using the GNAV for leach tension
but something Grumpf said about his ASBO and the fact
that the GNAV bent the mast more than it pushed down the
boom (which it also does on the Vago) lead me down the
main sheet tension road.

Am I right in my thinking or am I causing myself more
problems?

P.S. I do tend to over analyse things!

Edited by ellistine
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 10:46am
You might be over-analysing, I don't know! Certainly,
the rig is a factor and a gnav, conventional kicker and
using mainsheet tension will have different effects on
mast bend.

You need to be able to get the boom into the centreline
or very close to it and still have control over the
leech tension somehow. However you achieve this is up to
you.

I think the main point is that once you've got a decent,
workable set-up, not to spend too much time worrying
about it and first concentrate on good, sound sailing
technique. You need look no further than that 470 clip
as an example of how to sail a single trapeze boat
upwind in marginal conditions and aspire to that.

If you can get that basic technique even half right,
you'll already be blowing 90% of the rest of the Vago
fleet out of the water and you also then have solid
foundations on which to go forward and start worrying
about other stuff, like which way to go!






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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 10:51am
Oh, and the 470 uses a centre strop mainsheet system,
with leech tension adjusted with the mainsheet. The
kicker is usually adjusted so as to be "snug" and stop
the boom rising too much.

Inland or in gusty conditions, the kicker will have to
be used more, as there's more mainsheet movement, but on
the sea in sub full-power conditions, the main is set up
solely with the strop / sheet arrangement, the boom
centrelined, cleated and left alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 2:03pm
Not in the clip you linked too. You can see the helm easing the main sheet and the boom end not rising. So kicker is controlling leech tension in the video. Sounds like I'm being pedantic, which I suppose I am, even though I agree with what you are saying.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roy Race Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 09 at 3:08pm
You're right. Especially in the beginning of the video,
when there's more wind. You would have no option other
than to have the kicker controlling leech tension when
the sheet needs to be eased regularly.

The 470 has a set-up where the floating block can be
over-centralised by shortening the windward strop. You
can see the helm doing this shortly after the tack at
0.55. It's quite fiddly though.

On a sea course, where you can get settled into a tack
for a decent amount of time, they do slacken off the
kicker and have the mainsheet / strop arrangement taking
most of the leech load upwind in light airs. It just
seems to be faster. Don't know why.

On a lake, the reality is that there's less time to
settle and the kicker will be used more. Even so, I'd
say there's a substantial amount of downward pull in the
mainsheet in the latter part of the vid, when the wind
is lighter, so the leech load is shared by mainsheet and
vang. Of course, upon easing the sheet (which we don't
get to see in the lighter wind), the boom would only
have to rise by a centimetre to transfer all the load
back onto the vang.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 09 at 5:43pm
I used to sail and train in Lasers. Now there's not
going to be much difference between Lasers if properly
setup and yet some people just outpointed everybody else.
This got me thinking and I wonder if you are suffering
from the same problem.

If there were no wind at all but you still had a little
way on, what would be the best angle to point? Well the
answer is straight at the mark and yet I see novices all
the time let the boat bear away as the gust eases. Its
natural as the boat heels to leeward it rounds up and
when the wind eases the boat bears away. That is not the
fastest way up a beat and when you look at the boats
around you they all seem to work their way up to windward
and so you think your boat doesn't point.

So here's how to do it. Get the boat setup as advised
above and then steer it. Gain speed in the gusts by
driving the boat a bit - which may mean easing the main,
but don't let the boat heel. When you have speed, head
up enough to maintain speed and this will most often mean
trimming the sails in a bit. In the lulls head up a bit
more and trim the sails really flat and narrow. As the
boat looses speed you'll have to gradually bear off a bit
and ease the sails to get back to the optimum settings
for maintaining speed.

Its a bit like having a 3 speed gear box. 1st gear is
for acceleration and its open leached, 2nd gear is for
maintaining cruising speed, tighter leached but the sails
should not be too flat and 3rd gear is "point at all
costs". You don't use 1st gear very much unless there's
a hell of a chop and not much wind. 2nd gear is the one
you'd use in a steady wind - its the optimum for windward
work. And 3rd gear is like a very high gear - hopeless
for dealing with gusts but it'll give you a little drive
whilst you point up. Naturally these gears are slightly
different in the way they are implemented according to
average wind speed. And just as a rider the gears are different according to the type of boat, for instance a
Laser 4000 is very different from a Laser.

It sounds complicated doesn't it, but then sailing a boat
to windward is difficult and that's the challenge.
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ellistine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ellistine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 09 at 6:14pm

I forgot about this post. Here's an update;


This sunday our club organised and Asymmetric training
day. The morning was upwind training with a Navy
Sailing Instructor (who's a member) and the afternoon was
downwind training with Graham Foreshaw.


I found it extremely useful to the point that on
Monday night we came third in the Asymm race and only
lost 2nd place by 19 seconds. If I knew the difference
between an individual recall and a group recall we would
have deffinitely nabbed 2nd place (we went back around
the pin when we didn't need to). These are some of the
things I picked up that seemed to help;


Leach tension. What I thought was tight was still
quite open and twisted. I now keep more main on when the
boom's centered and more kicker when it's not.


Aim to sail with 5 degrees of windward heel (which in
reality just means the boat is actually flat).


Pay more attention to the windward telltale and less
to the leeward one (keep it just lifting).


I also moved the shrouds up two holes and bought some
of those 3 quid rubber palmed gloves from Jewsons which
are quite possibly the best bit of sailing kit I've ever
bought!


Anyway, I'm hoping we're not becoming pure lightwind
specialists and that we maintain our new found form in
stronger breezes too. Fingers crossed!


 



Edited by ellistine
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