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RS400 proposed changes

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 10:53am
Originally posted by timg

Turning it into a straight pole would ruin the deep soaking ability of the 400 and reduce the RTC appeal.

I dunno, the damn thing seems to me to make just enough difference that you have to use it, but not actually enough to change the polars significantly against other classes. It seems to me the reason the RS400 soaks so deep is that the hull is very good indeed at displacement/transitional speeds and rather mediocre in a planing regime, so there is little advantage to sailing the hot angles you would in boats that are better planing and not so good displacement.

Having said that pragmatically there's no way to change it: it would be major surgery on the boat to get a fixed pole to retract properly. In Nick's place I would only consider it for a major revamp (RS401??) with new moulds etc...
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 12:31pm
Not that I care, as I'm never going to own one, but how do you square the notion of One-Design racing with a big change to the cut of the main and the jib. Are you going to declare all the old cut sails illegal? - I don't think so. So now you'll have half the fleet with old sails and half with new ones, and the former lot will feel that the latter lot have an advantage. Then later on some bright spark will discover that the old cut of jib is better in light airs or summat, so they'll start hoarding the old jibs for use in just those conditions. Hmmm, windy today, I'll use the new style jib and the old style main.

All the other changes might be justifiable in a one-design class as a performance advantage is not necessarily obtained with a carbon boom etc, but the sails thing just blows it out of  the water. The well heeled will bend over and buy the new sails, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the budget sailors just throw in the towel.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 12:41pm
Originally posted by Mikey 14778

Not that I care, as I'm never going to own one, but how do you square the notion of One-Design racing with a big change to the cut of the main and the jib. Are you going to declare all the old cut sails illegal? - I don't think so. So now you'll have half the fleet with old sails and half with new ones, and the former lot will feel that the latter lot have an advantage. Then later on some bright spark will discover that the old cut of jib is better in light airs or summat, so they'll start hoarding the old jibs for use in just those conditions. Hmmm, windy today, I'll use the new style jib and the old style main.

All the other changes might be justifiable in a one-design class as a performance advantage is not necessarily obtained with a carbon boom etc, but the sails thing just blows it out of  the water. The well heeled will bend over and buy the new sails, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the budget sailors just throw in the towel.
Nah, even if you're only a little bit competitive you buy new sails now and then and after a season there will be second-hand one available anyway. It's far more expensive/trouble to change class than buy some second-hand sails.
 
In my GP I bought a complete set of sails (mix and match sailmakers) which make my sails well below the average age of sails in the fleet for less then 250.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 12:47pm
I think you are being just a tad hypcritical here Mikey.
 
Let us take the example of the Fireball. I know it is not a SMOD but a more traditional OD.
 
Look at the original boat. Proctor D mast, no spreaders, no kite, no trapeze, cotton sails made of wood.
 
Look at the boat today: Good ali rig (I know that class has rejected carbon sticks a number of times), trapeze, kite, epoxy laminate hull
 
Had the boat not evolved over the years then how many people can you see would be wanting to sail it?.....
 
As the change was managed by the class successfully in relatively small increments (this includes sail changes and the addition of a kite) the class is the thriving success we see today.
 
As I have already mentioned the Blaze class which is a SMOD went through a managed rig change, driven by the class, and it now a success.
 
I suppose the difference with the RS400 is that there are a lot of boats out there already. However as Nick has pointed out this change is being driven by the class. If there are those who object they need to join the CA and make their voices heard. If they do not then they cannot really have any complaints... (IMO)
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 12:49pm
Nah, even if you're only a little bit competitive you buy new sails now and then and after a season there will be second-hand one available anyway. It's far more expensive/trouble to change class than buy some second-hand sails.
 
In my GP I bought a complete set of sails (mix and match sailmakers) which make my sails well below the average age of sails in the fleet for less then 250. 

Errrm, but these sails are supposed to last for years, so how many 2nd-hand new stylee sails do you think you're going to find on the market in 2 years time. I can count the number of 2nd hand new-style RS300 sails on offer on the fingers of one foot, so why would the 400 be any different?

And you're talking about a GP which is not a SMOD, ie market forces apply. You can forget that model here.




Edited by Mikey 14778 - 13 Oct 10 at 12:51pm
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 12:55pm
Jeffers, of course you are right. But the Fireball was never a one design class, was it?

My point is that the RS400 won't be one-design after this either. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Mikey 14778

But the Fireball was never a one design class, was it?

Yes, and still is as far as I'm aware.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by Mikey 14778

Nah, even if you're only a little bit competitive you buy new sails now and then and after a season there will be second-hand one available anyway. It's far more expensive/trouble to change class than buy some second-hand sails.
 
In my GP I bought a complete set of sails (mix and match sailmakers) which make my sails well below the average age of sails in the fleet for less then 250. 

Errrm, but these sails are supposed to last for years, so how many 2nd-hand new stylee sails do you think you're going to find on the market in 2 years time. I can count the number of 2nd hand new-style RS300 sails on offer on the fingers of one foot, so why would the 400 be any different?

And you're talking about a GP which is not a SMOD, ie market forces apply. You can forget that model here.


There's an unused RS400 mainsail and main and jib on the CA website now. I found at least three less than 2 season old suits of sails for the 400 this year with minimal effort.

Edited by Matt Jackson - 13 Oct 10 at 1:20pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

.... It has it's pros and cons; but ultimately the class would make the best decision for itself and would no doubt use the Y&Y reaction for a gauge on 'outside opinion' only.

 
That's not really the case, it may have been prompted by a few owners, but it's the manufacturers who have gone away and created the prototype, without discussing with the wider membership of the CA until now.
It has not gone through any CA discussion process yet.
First I heard of it as a CA member was garbled report of 'who else is making aftermarket sails for the 400'! after someone spotted it in Chi Harbour.
 
The parallel change in Fireballs would be a change of sail planform and allowing a couple of kilos to be taken out of the bow.
 
I'm sure the top ten boats will find new sails. Probably the top 20 or more. It's the distribution around the middle of the club fleet that will become unfair and divisive.
It probably makes the cost of entering the RS400 fleet at mid fleet level about 1500 higher, unless that value has been wiped off all the mid fleet boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 10 at 1:37pm

I feel a vote coming on!  Should the 400's:

  • Do nothing
  • Do all the proposed changes apart from the change of sail plan
  • Do all the proposed changes
  • Go the whole hog, add a carbon mast and reduce the hull weight too and call it a 401
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