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GP14 have you looked at one lately?

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andybury View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andybury Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 1:14pm

Its doesn't look like a walk in the park to me.

1st

Gold

14091

Stuart Bithell

Christian Birrell

Hollingworth Lake SC

1.0

(10.0)

3.0

1.0

4.0

2.0

1.0

(24.0)

2.0

48.0

14.0

2nd

Gold

14021

Monty

Ian Dobson

Andy Tunnicliffe

Burwain SC/ RWYC

2.0

2.0

4.0

4.0

3.0

(5.0)

2.0

1.0

(7.0)

30.0

18.0

3rd

Gold

14082

Screamer

Mike Senior

Liz Senior

South Staffs SC

(6.0)

5.0

1.0

(6.0)

2.0

1.0

4.0

5.0

1.0

31.0

19.0

4th

Gold

14067

One Purpose 14

Tom Gillard

Bruce Deppe

Sheffild Viking SC

3.0

4.0

2.0

(10.0)

1.0

3.0

(7.0)

2.0

4.0

36.0

19.0

5th

Gold

14061

Shane MacCarthy

Andy Davis

Greystones SC

8.0

12.0

5.0

2.0

7.0

4.0

3.0

(18.0)

(22.0)

81.0

41.0

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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by oldarn

Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by RS400atC

So how do we have races without classes then?


Simple - sail similar boats like Oldarn's ST class!
 Unfortunately we are not all able to race equally, even in a class like the GP. Some have old boats and some competetive high tech boats. So why do  those with older and mostly uncompetetive boats bother to race knowing they can't win. Simple, they enjoy sailing and like racing.
 
If you enjoy sailing a GP, and it appears Northers do, like they prefer rugby league, then they are lucky to have some good class racing and within some clubs. There are many sailors now left with dying classes, but they like their boat an would prefer to race against similar boats  even if not equally, rather than in a  handicap class.
This is definately not a new class, though perhaps it could become the basis of one, but a way of getting young guys into more exciting classes than perhaps the GP. No offence intended. I did sail one just once! I envy their one design class racing.

Not really sure what you're promoting Oldarn. Are you saying race any old boat, with no class rules? or do the boats have to stick to their original rules? I can see a point in 'no class rules' racing, say at a club where there is no serious dinghy racing (there are several sailing clubs like that around here, they are mainly active in Yachts etc (and bars!)). But say I was racing an old enterprise, the sails are pretty shot, so I'm going to give it a cheap performance boost by sticking a secondhand Merlin Rocket rig on it. That sort of thing could quickly get out of hand, a little thought makes you realise what a good idea the PY scheme is.
I looked at the picture galleries, must admit could not get enthused. I'd rather have a nice wooden GP, but the practicalities of leaving a boat out in the frost for winter racing would be an issue. Especially in the 'cold north' which includes Frensham Pond and everything north of that to us South Coast people.

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ex laser View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 1:36pm
andybury, your doing a great job publicity wise for the g.p14( which is a great boat).

but maybe its time to step away for the keyboard and stop feeding the trolls!!!!!!!! Wink

sit back and bask in the knowledge they are wrong. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by andybury

On the circuit it all about the racing, its demanding, tactical,equal and challenging.


you see that's our point of difference Andy.  I do not believe that the newer boats are equal to the old wooden ones.  If they were, then there would be no need to upgrade and spend as much cash when a new suit of sails would be all that's needed to restore top level performance.  So the guys with the cash are buying performance, now okay, human nature is such that the guys at the front of the fleet will have a natural draw to newer kit anyway, but on a face value 'equality' doesn't exist.

You then throw into the mix that if the PY system worked as efficiently as the RYA would like, then average yardstick would fall, as even if the class can pull wool over the eyes of its members, the performance jump in the results won't lie and the latest kit will get branded a bandit whilst it's still in the minority of the class data set.   When the number does eventually drop, this puts the old boats even further out of contention at the local club- remember these old boats are a popular cheap entry point to the sport, this is grossly unfair on the newcomer and the reason I would (now) always recommend one of the more performance-orientated rotomoulds over an old tub to a newbie.

So no, I don't believe it is equal- far from it.  But please don't take this viewpoint as specific to the GP14, I think it applies to quite a few of the lipstick classes.

I have to agree with rogue.

 If dated classes were allowed to die naturally, then there would not be so much banditry which has so effected andycap racing. Banditry is tied up with jockeys.

Andybury, how many of the many world champs referred have been or are also jockeys or Olympic hopefuls?


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rogue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by oldarn

 

 If dated classes were allowed to die naturally, then there would not be so much banditry which has so effected andycap racing. Banditry is tied up with jockeys.
 

the active dinghy sailing classes in the UK seem like a mausoleam for the undead... no wonder so many young people don't continue with it beyond teenage years.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


Not really sure what you're promoting Oldarn.


I was not promoting anything other than explaining how at my club we are encouraging some young pre- uni keen dinghy racers to stay in the sport by offering more exciting sailing than their toppers and streakers offer, and importantly at little cost. There are also a couple of GPs in the club!.

My comment was on another topic, I guess rogue found the idea relevant to this discussion,  after all this forum is about ideas and stricktly not about advertising the attempted revival of an ancient class.

RS400atC, I suggest you are not aware of the fact that our sport needs reviving at an amateur level and that means at club level and with youngsters, andybury's advert is systematic of our sports problem. It has become to professional.
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iwsmithuk View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iwsmithuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by oldarn

 

 If dated classes were allowed to die naturally, then there would not be so much banditry which has so effected andycap racing. Banditry is tied up with jockeys.
 

the active dinghy sailing classes in the UK seem like a mausoleam for the undead... no wonder so many young people don't continue with it beyond teenage years.  
 
I've been biting my tongue here and trying to resist troll feeding but as I'm one of the alleged undead I've decided to have my say before dropping off my perch.
 
Why so much vitriol about this?
 
There seem to be one or two sailors on here who've tried a whole lot of boats and not succeeded in any of them, either in class racing or handicap racing. As a result they seem to have had a little paddy, thrown their toys out of the pram and stomped off to go windsurfing or whatever (sorry about the mixed metaphors!).
 
If you don't like older designs that's fine, but many of us do and we enjoy sailing them. Is that any reason to start insulting us? Just walk away and enjoy doing whatever it is you enjoy. Live and let live.....
 
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ex laser View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 2:22pm
classes die all the time( ask rupert)

old classes that do survive, do so because enough people( sailors and builders) want them too.

thats the free market.

rogue, i would have thought, you of all people would have suported this! Wink


Edited by ex laser - 17 Feb 12 at 2:23pm
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oldarn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by iwsmithuk

 
If you don't like older designs that's fine, but many of us do and we enjoy sailing them. Is that any reason to start insulting us? Just walk away and enjoy doing whatever it is you enjoy. Live and let live.....

 Sorry jwsmithuk, though I'm sure you have not been referring to me, I have two fireflies. One is a 45 year old wooden one and one a five year old plastic on. They will both be racing at this years nationals.  I love the true one design racing that class offers and,. In the hands of a good sailor either boats could win.

Sensibly the new grp design did not go doubled bottomed Why should it have? I am on your side in that older boats should not be totally devalued by a newer version.  It need not be if handled sensibly, but buy going double bottomed and epoxy, this does rather sound like a commercial decision. Will there be a Winder jockey in the new boat?. 
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rogue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 3:24pm
no he's referring to me and grumpf... which is easily answered for me anyway, I've had the same (primary) boat for what will now be 4 years, (saved up for a year before buying it too).  Around that I do a bit of windsurfing and club dinghy sailing.  I've never raced my main boat, no intention to now or ever.  So more than happy to live and let live, but then I'm one of the few who are still sailing in some form- I have a lot of friends who don't anymore now they are restricted to what's on offer at the local sailing club.  

I've passed through dinghy sailing from club racing to national championships, spent my time team racing (which is highly undervalued btw) and competed as one of the happy participants who if he got anywhere like half way up a fleet would say it's been a good day on the water.  I have a very positive relationship with sailing in general, but I look at a lot of 'dinghy racing' at club level and think holy sh*t, how soulless and depressing... it's just not moved on with the times.  Which is why I've spent cash chopping and changing boats to try and inject some excitement into the free time I've spent doing it- in the main I've been okay only losing natural depreciation, so it hasn't cost as much as people might assume.  And to a level this has been successful- if you can commit to circuit events like the MPS or RS series then there's some awesome sociable, multi-level racing available in some pretty cool boats- not all of which are 'extreme'.  (have a go in a Vareo open meeting... it's great fun) 

Now I think it's fair to say there are progressive clubs out there and if I lived a stone's throw from Hayling Island, Stokes Bay, Parkstone, Rutland or Datchet then I'd have no problem finding a boat that I would personally enjoy racing week in week out- I like asymmetric single handers, which I accept is a little niche, but hardly 'out there' like a foiling moth.  But sadly I don't live near those places, so while circuit racing is a time luxury I presently don't have, all that's open to me is club racing... in old boring boats around cats cradle processions they call races.

Now these old boring boats might suit the locals doing the conga 3 times a sunday- most are in their late forties or fifties, if not older.  They probably enjoy the time away from the weekend chores, their nagging wives and/or shunting a trolley around Tesco... but imo it's a ticking time bomb for a community sport...   now if those folks were out there protecting the interests of the younger generation by promoting modern, easy to use, easy to maintain boats, then that'd be a good thing, well I think it would... after all generations before them embraced the trapeze on the fireball, even the toe straps in the Mirror... they invested in a future back then, that we seem reluctant to do now.

Our current sailing culture would rather spend ten grand on a pimped up old design to improve their handicap position or buy their way up a fleet.  Not everyone approaches it in such a Machiavellian manner, but there's enough tide to change the dynamics of the dinghy market and we all get hooked in, folk even believe there old wooden GP is just as competitive as the new plastic ones.... even I've spent 8k on a Phantom- wtf????  You can bunch these up as 'Lipstick Classes'... you all know which ones I mean, just check out the P&B brochure.

But there are boats and people out there who are striving to offer something better and could potentially appeal to the future of this sport... the Icon would be a great family racer, as well as providing enough weight tolerance to take a mate out. I would love to think there were 10 of them at the local pond to race against in a couple of years when my daughter's big enough to hold a jib sheet.  Who knows, when she's older maybe we'd move on to an Alto to spice it up a bit, again another new entrant I hope makes a success of itself.... sadly the current 'route' at my club would be Miracle... m'eh, followed by Fireball... double m'eh.  So forgive me when I say, as a parent, I won't even bother to introduce dinghies into the mix unless things change (or we move to the coast, unlikely in the medium term...)  

It's just a really weird... perhaps you need to step outside and look in to appreciate it.  It's easy to knock GRF's views, I do it a fair bit in the name of banter, but he's got a lot of very good points about sports marketing and community sports underneath that 'guff'.  As for my views, take 'em or leave 'em, I really don't care.  If you find them offensive it is because there are grains of truth that it grates against, but take comfort in the fact I accept that I am in the minority and that I doubt anything I say will make one jot of difference to the (limited and restricted) future of the sport.


Edited by rogue - 17 Feb 12 at 3:27pm
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