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sargesail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:40pm
A leg is the course between two marks.  I think if we were talking different laps you might be right but that's not the case here. (Your query will tell you - although I'm surprised its not in the case law).  The key point is that they are sailing in the same race.  I would absolutely agree with you if it was different starts and different races, but it's not.  

The Fireball could sail its proper course with its sails completely out, but it would still be its proper course).  But you are misunderstanding the intent behind the rule.  This is designed to for the sitaution where the course has a 90% rounding from a run (ie to a beam reach) and the lead boat tacks back onto starboard to collect a boat still coming down the run - he would not be sailing his proper course and it would not be legit.  If the mark rounding were back upwind on to a beat then he could do just that (as long as it is legit on other rules) but he could not then tack and bear away in order to get beneath the other boat again.

Lots of people read what they want to on this issue, not what is in the rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:52pm
'Legal' or not ....but is it 'acceptable' in a largely amateur sport and at a handicap event should be the question posed and addressed.  If it is totally 'acceptable' then it is indeed a sad day for all. 

If I was sponsoring the series or event I'd withdraw all support until such practices were satisfactorily outlawed.   Anyone benefitting should should think about  donating any 'gains' to a suitable charity imo.

Mike L.


Edited by blaze720 - 27 Feb 12 at 10:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:53pm
I think Oulton Ben has a point - the slower boat was not on a leg until she started, therefore the faster boat was on a different leg and not sailing her proper course.

Interestingly enough the series organiser, Andy Rice, wrote an article coming out against sailing boats down the fleet in his Y&Y column recently. And that includes Ainslie's epic against Scheidt. So that would suggest that this tactic is against the spirit of the SJ series.

Clutching at straws here, but is there a definition of what constitutes a series? You could argue that a Series needs three things; its own entry, a NoR and SI's. The SJ series had a NoR, but did it have an expicit entry process and SI's? If not, the Sail Juice events may not actually be a series and therefore the Fireball's actions were not advantageous to getting their best result at the regatta in which they were actually competing - the Draycote Dash - which they are obliged to do.

Of course, it's all just meant to be a bit of fun so it seems a shame to take it all so seriously. That's for the other 5 days of the week.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by sargesail

A leg is the course between two marks. .......
..... (Your query will tell you - although I'm surprised its not in the case law). .....
...... The key point is that they are sailing in the same race.  I would absolutely agree with you if it was different starts and different races, but it's not. ..... 
Taking your own words about being selective in personal wishes and not reading what is in the RRS:-

1st point:   "Leg" in the RRS is not in italics, and therefore not defined; my Protest Committee query was seeking a Case-Law definition of not just "Leg", but "Same + Leg".

2nd point:    I concur with your surprise at the Time it has taken Not to receive a reply; indeed my PC included a Very Highly regarded member of the authorities' (note the plural) rules committees !

3rd point:    Agree also that we're talking Same-Race, but you fail to answer the "Implication" of the RRS that Legs are bounded by Marks-of-the-Course, that only come into play At the Start; Different Starts therefore Imply Different Legs. I carefully choose the word "Imply", above, as I am trying to read the RRS Very Carefully !

It appears totally legal for one fleet in an early start to manoeuvre against a fleet from a later start, but NOT ON THE FIRST LEG from their own start. They must clearly be On-The-Same-Leg to allow this.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Little Monster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky


Clutching at straws here, but is there a definition of what constitutes a series? You could argue that a Series needs three things; its own entry, a NoR and SI's. The SJ series had a NoR, but did it have an expicit entry process and SI's? If not, the Sail Juice events may not actually be a series and therefore the Fireball's actions were not advantageous to getting their best result at the regatta in which they were actually competing - the Draycote Dash - which they are obliged to do.

 
I think what is more important here is that the Draycote Dash event SI's and NoR do not (as I understand) refer to the SJ Series at all.  The races sailed are therefore part of the Dash only and if anybody else wants to use the results to calculate a seperate series then thats their business.  The name of the event that would have been put on the Protest Form, if anybody had done so, would have been the Draycote Dash.
 
That to me suggests that the Fireball would have breached Rule 2 as it was the first race of the event.


Edited by Little Monster - 27 Feb 12 at 11:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:22am
3rd point:    Agree also that we're talking Same-Race, but you fail to answer the "Implication" of the RRS that Legs are bounded by Marks-of-the-Course, that only come into play At the Start; Different Starts therefore Imply Different Legs. I carefully choose the word "Imply", above, as I am trying to read the RRS Very Carefully !

Not sure I fokkow your logic at all there.  

Surely Boat 1 starts - it is on the leg to mark 1.  3 minutes later boat 2 starts - until one of them rounds mark 1 they are on the same leg.  When they have both rounded mark 1 they are on the same leg again.

It appears totally legal for one fleet in an early start to manoeuvre against a fleet from a later start, but NOT ON THE FIRST LEG from their own start. They must clearly be On-The-Same-Leg to allow this.
[/QUOTE]

I think there are some under the impression that the Fireball manouevrred against an opponent before the opponent started.  That's not the case, but I also don't think it's what you're saying here.  I think your implication is that the Fireball can't sail other than her proper course until the other boat has started.  I can't see where you get that from in Rule 23.2:

23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg

If it is not actually interfering it can do what it wants.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:48am
I can't see that having the start in flights afects this at all - it is quite common at narrow river clubs, where 1/2 the fleet might start 2minutes after, but the earlier starting boats are quite within their rights to stop a later starting boat from overtaking, however soon after the start.

The 1st race arguement holds water, provided it is illegal to sail someone down the fleet in the 1st race of the last class open meeting of the year in order to win the traveller trophy?

What I can't work out is that if this Fireball (I've not looked at the results, so dunno who it is) is a fast enough boat to have been in with a chance of winning the sailjuice event, he didn't trust his ability enough to try and win the Dash, and with it the whole winter series?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:19am
I'm not sure the 'first race' thing has any foundations.
If a boat knows who its rival is, I suspect it could just as legitimately sail it out of the first race as the last race?
Suppose the fleet was a one design, where everybody knew the top sailors, and it was a commonly held view that either A or B were expected to win the regatta.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:29am
Originally posted by sargesail

..... Surely Boat 1 starts - it is on the leg to mark 1.  3 minutes later boat 2 starts - until one of them rounds mark 1 they are on the same leg.  When they have both rounded mark 1 they are on the same leg again.

..... I think there are some under the impression that the Fireball manouevrred against an opponent before the opponent started.  That's not the case, but I also don't think it's what you're saying here.  I think your implication is that the Fireball can't sail other than her proper course until the other boat has started.  I can't see where you get that from in Rule 23.2:

..... If it is not actually interfering it can do what it wants. 
After a good night's sleep ..... we're at it again, Yay !
Good Morning Sargesail.

2nd & 3rd points first:- Yes I agree, the Fireball can sail her 1st leg in whatever manner she likes (even hovering like a Sparrowhawk looking for its kill); at this point the Phantom still waiting to start, has no proper course.

1st point:- Here is where we appear to disagree.
Before the Phantom starts:
    only the Fireball has a leg to sail, bounded at one end by her start, and at the other end by Mark-1.

After the Phantom starts:
    they both have a leg to continue to sail, or commence sailing respectively, equally bounded at one end by their respective starts, and by the same Mark-1 at the other.

Although geographically the 2 legs appear the same, because they had different start-points in time, they must be defined as different legs;
therefore if one boat interferes with the other during its own first-leg, it is doing so against a boat on a different first leg and therefore illegal.

I have to admit that this is a new way of looking at this issue in a manner that I had Not thought of before; my own gut feeling was to agree with you Sargesail, that the Fireball could manoeuvre in whatever manner it wished, however the more I looked into the RRSs the more I became convinced of a different argument.
Every now and again someone comes up with a new interpretation of the RRS that possibly goes against accepted practice.


I'm still waiting for an answer to my 6-month old official query to define "Same-Leg"; hey-ho ?

This IS fun !    he-he !


Edited by OultonBen - 28 Feb 12 at 9:34am
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:51am
I tend to agree with RS400at C's point about the first race  - it could be beneficial to your overall result to sail a top guy down the fleet if you got the chance in the first race
 
but then, while I like OultonBen's 'space-time' argument about the two legs after the two start times being different and think that technically from a physics point of view it is correct, I doubt the agrument will be won because in ordinary life most people don't think that way.
 
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