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Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Recent design Cherubs, Raced that one Pete Barton used to own at Abersoch.  Jesus wept it was fast, it smoked the 29ers and 800's on the water.  In all of the conditions we had during the week it was very fast.  Different boat to the converted boats of old.


What? Was that like the one Jimbo couldn't sail?
That could be any boat hes owned Wink But yeah one of the later built boats.  They look great, really well put together.  it all looks in scale and well thought through.  A far cry from the rehashed, scrap heap challenges we used to see.  In fact where have all these boats gone?  Do they still appear on the Cherub circuit?  Anyway, whilst he new UK boats are flying machines i still think the decision to go to the twin wire nonsense has ruined that class.  I much prefer the look and idea behind the aussie version, shame it didnt go down that route.  But then i guess thats another thread entirely.

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 12:41pm
Agree on the twin wire thing last time I came up against one they were bearing so far off in order to both stay on the wire they failed to spot they weren't actually making any ground to windward, the direction the rest of the fleet were headed at the time.
There was a kewell green one at the dinghy show I remember, one of the stand out boats this year, it and the Aura, another tragedy, wasted in a market that thinks 200+ people sailing a GP14 is a good thing.

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Peaky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 1:06pm
The green one sails from Chew. 'Tis beautiful.

I won't mention that the owners of said boat were last seen sailing the club Vision...
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Recent design Cherubs, 


What? Was that like the one Jimbo couldn't sail?
That could be any boat hes owned  Wink 

so true... although the rest of the boats all got off the beach unaided (at least once)

The 'problem' for that particular boat being no good for a big guy's single hander was volume distribution (and to a lesser, non-cherub compliant extent) the low freeboard from those big stupid wings.  

There's no point having a cassette rudder if you can't stand near the back to put the fecker down.... even if you can somehow weight the front down enough to climb over the transom and hoof it forward quick enough to stop it back flipping.  Let's not get going on the capsize recovery- unseaworthy, simple as.

Volume isn't something that features in the lexicon of dinghy sailors too much, well not compared to windsurfers anyway.  Something I've learned to my (exorbitant) cost.    I guess well just assume there's positive buoyancy in most dinghies and any semi-reasonably designed craft would get the distribution in vaguely the right place through the prototyping phase.  

I've no idea what the volume distribution's like in other newer cherubs, but it's worth noting they've all been designed as two handers for two people, not a hybrid like the boat I selected, so it's not an issue once you've got a second set of hands and half your crew weight forward.  FWIW - I've had contact from a number of respected cherub sailors who said quite categorically that a '97 would have made a far better platform for a singlehanded project- more stable, typically larger BWL...  I guess it pays to get a second opinion before buying something.  Confused    


Edited by pondmonkey - 15 Aug 12 at 1:30pm
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getafix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 5:22pm
In no particular order my top 10 'bandits': Phantom, Finn, MR, Albacore, Wayfarer, 420 (when it's howling), N12 (when it's not), Mirror, Graduate, RS200
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by getafix

In no particular order my top 10 'bandits': Phantom, Finn, MR, Albacore, Wayfarer, 420 (when it's howling), N12 (when it's not), Mirror, Graduate, RS200

It didn't look like that when all of the the Blazes and Phantoms went past me in my Finn as if I was standing still in the Draycote Dash Pursuit race a couple of years ago  Cry
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 6:18pm
How can a boat be a bandit "when its howling" or "on the sea" when handicaps are worked out over all conditions and sailing areas. A boat can perform better on handicap in certain conditions - probably all boats do - but the idea of a bandit is one where it simply sails better than handicap in almost all places and all windstrengths.

I suspect (with no evidence at all - this IS a forum) there are more boats which perform badly in all conditions than ones which perform well - what boats would people suggest never to buy as a handicap racer?
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
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rodney View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Rupert

How can a boat be a bandit "when its howling" or "on the sea" when handicaps are worked out over all conditions and sailing areas. A boat can perform better on handicap in certain conditions - probably all boats do - but the idea of a bandit is one where it simply sails better than handicap in almost all places and all windstrengths.

I suspect (with no evidence at all - this IS a forum) there are more boats which perform badly in all conditions than ones which perform well - what boats would people suggest never to buy as a handicap racer?

+1  The answer is none and, IMO, the only time handicaps work is across a series!

Fireball, 420, Contender in a blow but rubbish in the light.  Finn, Albacore and even Wayfarer when it's light!   Thank god that 90% of my limited sailing is class racing  Wink
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 6:43pm
The sea thing plays a part with Lasers for two reasons, 1) They're a low volume hull made in a high density plastic that reacts badly to being sailed on fresh water so is slower, there are more being sailed on fresh water, or there are more fresh water clubs putting in returns. 2)On the sea, they have a good 'surf' shape which picks up and rides waves well, plus some extra wrinkles like that clew first sailing by the lee stuff which gives them bonus performance on waves on a dead run. Plus salt water gets them planing earlier than fresh.
Wether this all occurs for other hulls I'm not sure, but the Phantom, Blaze and my EPS all sail very similarly speed wise yet there have been very distinct handicap differences which I note are now closing with recent alterations.


Edited by G.R.F. - 15 Aug 12 at 6:45pm
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

The sea thing plays a part with Lasers for two reasons, 1) They're a low volume hull made in a high density plastic that reacts badly to being sailed on fresh water so is slower, there are more being sailed on fresh water, or there are more fresh water clubs putting in returns. 2)On the sea, they have a good 'surf' shape which picks up and rides waves well, plus some extra wrinkles like that clew first sailing by the lee stuff which gives them bonus performance on waves on a dead run. Plus salt water gets them planing earlier than fresh.
Wether this all occurs for other hulls I'm not sure, but the Phantom, Blaze and my EPS all sail very similarly speed wise yet there have been very distinct handicap differences which I note are now closing with recent alterations.

Science, its great GRF but I never ever found that when I had a Laser and sailed in a PY race on the sea. As soon as the wind got up a little bit the trapeze boats disappeared into the distance only to be seen on the beach quite some time later. Never would have thought of a Laser as a bandit.

It seems that peoples definition of a bandit does end up resulting in those classes that out-perform their nominal RYA rated PY in certain wind conditions. A Phantom will always do better in light airs than its PY and vice versa. The Finn generally is the other way round compared to the Phantom. Similar for the Contender too.

I always find it amazing that those screaming "bandit" at the Phantom for all those years that the PY was starting to move downwards never raised a murmur at those events when it was blowing and the Phantoms got stuffed on PY. 

As I have already said on this thread the only time a boat could be called a bandit is if it has been updated within its existing rule set and the PY has not caught up yet. This does not last long for most classes, and certainly shouldn't last long at club level at all and with the improvements in the returns procedures the PY's will adjust even quicker. I don't think that there is a genuine bandit boat out there because of this. So long as returns are made appropriately, then anything that has its nominal speed increased due to improvements to hull, sails, rig, etc, is not a bandit as they will be adjusted accordingly. It will take time, but it will happen. 

A "bandit boat" only exists in the minds of people who moan about the relative performances of boats in different wind/tidal/wave events because they can't beat the other boat. Stop moaning about it and get something done by getting your club to adjust the PY's. I don't go to a windy event moaning about the performance of a 420 or Contender labelling them as "bandits", I go out there to enjoy it for what its worth and accept that I stand no chance of beating them unless they fall in more than me.

I agree with Rodney about the series thing as well.
Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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