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Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.

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Rockhopper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rockhopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 9:45pm
I think what he means in the lasers at his club  an old mate of mine sails there and is an ex squad sailor who is very quick in one but he has been sailing one for 25 years god knows how he keeps going with his knees
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest
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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 9:58pm
Which of course doesn't mean that the boat is a bandit but rather that the sailor is rather handy. Which of course could be the sort of mistake a lot, but not all of course, make when they say a boat is a bandit, forgetting that the geezer on board makes most of the difference.

Edited by maxibuddah - 15 Aug 12 at 9:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:07pm
A laser is definitely quicker on the sea, especially once chop gives way to swell and the wind is up.

I thoroughly loved sailing mine on the sea, surf is awesome; but as soon as you take one inland it's the turd arse piece of sh1t that I will now forever associate with the class... Much better to have a 300 or Phantom inland, something with better glide.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 12 at 11:25pm
It's not just Doddsy, who agreed is about as handy as you can get in a Laser, my conclusions are drawn from sailing against the same folk on pretty much the same type of course in the same type of conditions week in week out, it used to be part of my job working out what made stuff  faster than other stuff and know why in smaller (but not that much smaller)board shaped crafts what made them do different things on different water types and the Laser is much faster than it's current PY suggests due to it's poorer performance inland.

We have several Lasers racing at Hythe at all levels and they do very well on handicap unless the other boat does even better, which the Blaze with it's new sail and the Merlin with it's carbon rig have of late.

The difficulty in all this is what you decide is the correct yardstick that others be judged by, what craft at say PY of 1000 should be the 'standard', if you assume the RS400 for instance has a pretty good handicap and is sailed to it, should it be beaten week in week out by a Merlin upon which it is allegedly based?

A boat that has been around a while, like the Contender and is also about right and is commonly accepted as a boat that folk need to be on the wire to sail to handicap, then you start seeing that get beaten when previously it wasn't, due to the increasing seconds that the laser has been gaining of late, the sailors haven't changed they're the same folk doing the same thing they did last year... That's the judgement, the boats haven't gotten any faster or slower, the returns have just varied from different sources.

So the Banter in the bar varies accordingly, but no small club on the sea, is going to do much else about it but banter in the bar and post crap on forums for the craic. Just as long as folk don't go believing their own press when they win all the time, everything is cool.


Edited by G.R.F. - 15 Aug 12 at 11:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L192444 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 8:59am
Face it, the Laser sailors are just better than you and quit your whining ...
 
The Laser is widly regarded as having a tough PY which is why it was adjusted up by the great lakes group for the Sailjuice series, this actually meant a Laser, for once, geting in amongst the results.
 
If you really are better than them then borrow one to prove it rather than moaning on and on about their PY
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 9:29am
Originally posted by G.R.F.


The difficulty in all this is what you decide is the correct yardstick that others be judged by, what craft at say PY of 1000 should be the 'standard', 


It's a shame there aren't more RS300s around.  They're about bang on the money with a c.1000 handicap. 

You can really see a sailor's skill around that number in those boats... a muppet or newbie will not sail near it, whereas a very good sailor can out perform it quite convincingly.... and that's kind of the point isn't it?  I was always happy with a 1000 handicap in an RS300.  It felt fair and more to the point, it feels fair to race against it in other boats.  I've done this at two clubs now, both with mixed skill 300s sailing and I can't remember ever feeling they were generously handicapped, or hobbled.   If you're really blighted by spreadsheet racing, then it's good benchmark to have in a fleet.

As an aside Graeme, I do wonder if that small eclectic mix of random processions you guys call club racing really isn't delivering good racing, why don't you all sell up and buy Lasers?  Our Laser fleet has grown massively with the economic downturn and the racing looks really good throughout the fleet.  If I was 15kg lighter I'd be eating my words now and be sailing one, purely for the quality of the racing.... we've got folks who've sold 700s and fast double handers now racing them, and they go out whatever the weather, so they're really making the most out of their membership and time away from the domestic bliss.  But at 100kg... inland.... no thanks, I'll stick with calling a turd-arse piece of sh1t, someone has to remind everyone that while the racing might be great, the boat is terrible. LOL  



Edited by pondmonkey - 16 Aug 12 at 9:32am
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L192444 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote L192444 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 9:41am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

... why don't you all sell up and buy Lasers?  
 
Because he'd get whipped by everyone and would not be able to hide behind PY excuses.
 
Everyone knows class fleet reacing is the best racing and is the only proper test of ability.
 
PY racing whilst entertaining will always be flawed. As for a benchmark class it has to be the Laser because it is the most numerious. Why not make the laser 1000 and then adjust otheers around that. Every club has lasers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MattHarris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 10:06am
Originally posted by L192444

 
Everyone knows class fleet reacing is the best racing and is the only proper test of ability.
 
PY racing whilst entertaining will always be flawed. As for a benchmark class it has to be the Laser because it is the most numerious. Why not make the laser 1000 and then adjust otheers around that. Every club has lasers.
 
Fleet racing may be the best but for those of us that aren't the right size/shape/ability for that boat then fleet racing is just a disappointing mess whereby lighter sailors win because of weight or those willing to spend 1000s on new sails/hulls do better.  Whilst in theory its all good if everyone uses the same kit, in reality its based on skill a lot less than you think.
 
Also why base the yardstick on a boat that has wildly varying capabilities dependent on where its sailed, surely using a 300 or 400 that performs very well to handicap across the board would be more suitable...
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 10:17am
If you base the yardstick on one class then if that needs a change all the others have to move. The Laser is a particularly tricky choice because from all the data I've gathered its as very difficult boat to handicap.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 12 at 10:25am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

It seems that peoples definition of a bandit does end up resulting in those classes that out-perform their nominal RYA rated PY in certain wind conditions. A Phantom will always do better in light airs than its PY and vice versa. The Finn generally is the other way round compared to the Phantom. Similar for the Contender too.

I always find it amazing that those screaming bandit at the Phantom for all those years that the PY was starting to move downwards never raised a murmur at those events when it was blowing and the Phantoms got stuffed on PY. 
[/QUOTE


 
+1. It's illuminating to look at the results from the Draycote Dash this year. On the Saturday the breeze started light  (around 8 knots) and steadily increased during the day until it was fully depowered conditions upwind in the final race. Charlie Cumbley was sailing his Phantom - his results were 1, 2, 5, 7, 10 clearly showing the effects of the wind increase during the day.
 
+1. It's illuminating to look at the results from the Draycote Dash this year. On the Saturday the breeze started light  (around 8 knots) and steadily increased during the day until it was fully depowered conditions upwind in the final race. Charlie Cumbley was sailing his Phantom - his results were 1, 2, 5, 7, 10 clearly showing the effects of the wind increase during the day.
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