New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223>
Author
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 12 at 8:51am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Chris 249


 
I'd argue that the continuing popularity of boats like the Laser demonstrate that they fulfil these subjective criteria better than most other craft, and that is more important than speed.
 


Well I'd argue that the continued popularity of the Laser is because of entirely different commercial reasons and the market that it serves, which is a tad strange, but I think I've at long last clocked the reason, ironically from this very forum.

If you look at that thread, how old were you when you started, you'll note that a disproportionate number started as kids, and as such were easily moulded into the belief model of their parents, we all know there is a huge fall out of kids, the ones with brains to think for themselves, so all you have left are the slightly retarded ones that just go on doing things the way they always were.
They actually believe that a regatta with a hundred people sailing an ancient piece of dross is a good thing, a fine image to portray the sport as, some of them have even grown up to have businesses of their own and scratch a living redesigning old dross to gain pathetic market share by cheating the PY system and making their customers cheat as well.
They are a strange breed, in breed if you like, but like all inbreds slightly deficient, so trying to market what in other walks of life would attract new customers in their droves, as for instance new model cars, bikes etc, just doesn't work, that and the fact there is no real distribution chain, it is a vertical model, with the driving influence one set of retards recommending their particular boat to would be neophytes and so the cycle continues.

A very difficult market to penetrate, even if you had a super duper fast easy flying machine that did everything you could possibly wish of it, the retards would simply quip 'it hasn't got a class' not that new people even know what a 'class' is and so the first sales objection stops the deal, and since there is no incentivised sales person or dealer in place with a profit motive to over come it, the market works by idiots advising other idiots and is served by second hand products because it's an easy choice and there are lots of second hand lasers, what I can't understand is why a company with such a powerful brand name can be losing so much money and doing so little to bite back.

There, that about sums it up. LOL

It sums up what you get when you ignore facts. From the personal level. through the regional level and to the national level, you are wrong.

On the personal level, the fact that you are wrong is shown by those of us who got into Lasers from completely different sailing heritages; for example, my brother, friends and many rivals came in from a heritage of performance development classes like Cherubs, Flying Ants (baby Cherubs), Moths and NS14s. 

At a regional level, many clubs without a Laser heritage have taken up the class. Over the last 10 years, the Laser has become the predominant class in my club and in my area. Six of the 8 clubs were formerly dominated by skiff types. It's obvious that clubs and sailors formerly dominated by skiff types did not shift to Lasers because their parents sailed Lasers, since their parents did not sail Lasers.

At the national level, you are wrong. Countries coming new into sailing are choosing Lasers among other craft. Yes, the Laser has ISAF imprimature but so do many other classes that emerging nations are NOT choosing.

The claim that the class' success relies on commercial factors is also b**locks, since the class is successful across the world despite a huge variation in the commercial factors in those areas and very different business models followed by the Laser builders.

You referred to bikes; aren't you into mountain bikes, which are noted as being the section of the market that has collapsed most over the last couple of decades? Headlines say MTBing could get dumped from the Games, fields ('round here) are full of old people with no kids, and the number of people actually racing is a fraction of the number racing road or TT bikes (which are more heavily restricted in development).

Why on earth would you knock a success like the Laser when you appear to promote a dwinding area like MTBs?
Back to Top
G.R.F. View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 Aug 08
Location: United Kingdom/Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4027
Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 12 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Chris 249


 
I'd argue that the continuing popularity of boats like the Laser demonstrate that they fulfil these subjective criteria better than most other craft, and that is more important than speed.
 


Well I'd argue that the continued popularity of the Laser is because of entirely different commercial reasons and the market that it serves, which is a tad strange, but I think I've at long last clocked the reason, ironically from this very forum.

If you look at that thread, how old were you when you started, you'll note that a disproportionate number started as kids, and as such were easily moulded into the belief model of their parents, we all know there is a huge fall out of kids, the ones with brains to think for themselves, so all you have left are the slightly retarded ones that just go on doing things the way they always were.
They actually believe that a regatta with a hundred people sailing an ancient piece of dross is a good thing, a fine image to portray the sport as, some of them have even grown up to have businesses of their own and scratch a living redesigning old dross to gain pathetic market share by cheating the PY system and making their customers cheat as well.
They are a strange breed, in breed if you like, but like all inbreds slightly deficient, so trying to market what in other walks of life would attract new customers in their droves, as for instance new model cars, bikes etc, just doesn't work, that and the fact there is no real distribution chain, it is a vertical model, with the driving influence one set of retards recommending their particular boat to would be neophytes and so the cycle continues.

A very difficult market to penetrate, even if you had a super duper fast easy flying machine that did everything you could possibly wish of it, the retards would simply quip 'it hasn't got a class' not that new people even know what a 'class' is and so the first sales objection stops the deal, and since there is no incentivised sales person or dealer in place with a profit motive to over come it, the market works by idiots advising other idiots and is served by second hand products because it's an easy choice and there are lots of second hand lasers, what I can't understand is why a company with such a powerful brand name can be losing so much money and doing so little to bite back.

There, that about sums it up. LOL

It sums up what you get when you ignore facts. From the personal level. through the regional level and to the national level, you are wrong.

On the personal level, the fact that you are wrong is shown by those of us who got into Lasers from completely different sailing heritages; for example, my brother, friends and many rivals came in from a heritage of performance development classes like Cherubs, Flying Ants (baby Cherubs), Moths and NS14s. 

At a regional level, many clubs without a Laser heritage have taken up the class. Over the last 10 years, the Laser has become the predominant class in my club and in my area. Six of the 8 clubs were formerly dominated by skiff types. It's obvious that clubs and sailors formerly dominated by skiff types did not shift to Lasers because their parents sailed Lasers, since their parents did not sail Lasers.

At the national level, you are wrong. Countries coming new into sailing are choosing Lasers among other craft. Yes, the Laser has ISAF imprimature but so do many other classes that emerging nations are NOT choosing.

The claim that the class' success relies on commercial factors is also b**locks, since the class is successful across the world despite a huge variation in the commercial factors in those areas and very different business models followed by the Laser builders.

You referred to bikes; aren't you into mountain bikes, which are noted as being the section of the market that has collapsed most over the last couple of decades? Headlines say MTBing could get dumped from the Games, fields ('round here) are full of old people with no kids, and the number of people actually racing is a fraction of the number racing road or TT bikes (which are more heavily restricted in development).

Why on earth would you knock a success like the Laser when you appear to promote a dwinding area like MTBs?

I can't pretend to know your antipodean perception, all I know and surmise is relevant to this market, but I bet I've sold more new high end Mountain Bikes than Laser have sold boats into the UK this year, including the Olympic boats they'll dump which will no doubt boost their figures.

FYI as I always like to enlighten the convict mind, the Mountain Bike market has changed due to the Ski resorts increasingly opening up their slopes to downhill vacationers off season, during which they actually make more profit as the infrastructure gets addtionally used and the resort further de seasonalised and without the cost of snow management, piste tractors, snow patrols etc etc
So the bikes have to be higher specc'd and the riders really need training so there is a rise in ther coaching element, plus the UK is now having to replace dry slopes with bike parks with uplifts, they've even put a lift in the welsh hills. XC isn't exactly booming but big mountain riding is growing the market for the boutique brands such as ours, check out Transition Bikes, some of them cost almost as much as a Laser.
Back to Top
tickler View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Jun 07
Location: Tunstead Milton
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 895
Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 12 at 7:06pm
I am just back from spectating at Pitsford. I think that agood proportion of the Lasers ever built are hiding in the undergrowth there on flat trolley wheels. This is true of many other clubs but there were 22 Lightnings racing out of a total build of about 350 boats. If next years Nationals reach 30 boats then that is almost 10%.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8837
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 12 at 10:25pm
Sad I couldn't be there, in the end. The Lightning appears to be a boat with a fair handicap, as old boats are competitive against new ones, but one that suffers a little when racing against new Solos.
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
Neptune View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jun 09
Location: Berkshire United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1292
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 8:31am
The Moth boats have also progressed by leaps and bounds in the last 18 months. New developments in foils, sails and rigging have been implemented, making the boats 1.5 knots faster upwind with 12 knots of breeze and upward. On average, the newer generation Moths are 10% faster all around the course than Belmont (2011 Worlds).

Taken from the story of the front page!


Edited by Neptune - 20 Aug 12 at 8:31am
RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff
Back to Top
tickler View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Jun 07
Location: Tunstead Milton
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 895
Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 9:09am
You missed a good event Rupert. John Claridge's re-modelling of Lightning was masterfull in that it did not out class older boats but..........all the subtle changes that have been made do seem to increase performance that little bit. It does not "grandfather" the older boats but I think more effort is needed to keep up. This is of course a two edged sword. all those lovelly new boats at the nationals which have displaced old boats for the second hand market (where there is a severe shortage) is a very good thing but will the most successful Lightning of all time ever win another Nationals? I doubt it but personal feelings apart it must be a good thing.

On another note. Lightning Nationals, winner 23 years old, second 27, third 25, fourth 17. An old mans boat?
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8837
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 9:29am
Now I feel really old...

I suspect the new rudder will have made a big difference - more than the new hull. A sticking a new rig in an old boat always seems to make a difference. I'd not rule out 104 winning again - assuming the nut on the tiller doesn't get distracted by faster boats again!

And No74 will win it next year, just you watch... (but don't hold your breath!)
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
tickler View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 03 Jun 07
Location: Tunstead Milton
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 895
Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 10:04am
An interesting comment Rupert. John did bring us a new rudder assembly but we had no time to change the pintles. Please understand that the boy was very happy with his third and the racing was very enjoyable for him (and me) but  if you give a mid fleet sailor a 1% advantage no one notices but if you give a top sailor a 1% advantage.........In benign conditions the Claridge boats just seem that little bit faster off wind. Are you suggesting that the new rudder has less drag? Boat speeds seem equal when it blows or when it is very light. It is just that bit inbetween.

Incidentally William Hill are giving seventy four 5 to 4 on for next year........I'd put a fiver on you!
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by tickler

I am just back from spectating at Pitsford. I think that agood proportion of the Lasers ever built are hiding in the undergrowth there on flat trolley wheels. This is true of many other clubs but there were 22 Lightnings racing out of a total build of about 350 boats. If next years Nationals reach 30 boats then that is almost 10%.

One of the classes I sail had almost 50% of the boats built in this country since 1950 racing at a nationals a few years back. It still a tiny class that cannot be compared to one that attracts hundreds of sailors.
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 12 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
I can't pretend to know your antipodean perception, all I know and surmise is relevant to this market, but I bet I've sold more new high end Mountain Bikes than Laser have sold boats into the UK this year, including the Olympic boats they'll dump which will no doubt boost their figures.

FYI as I always like to enlighten the convict mind, the Mountain Bike market has changed due to the Ski resorts increasingly opening up their slopes to downhill vacationers off season, during which they actually make more profit as the infrastructure gets addtionally used and the resort further de seasonalised and without the cost of snow management, piste tractors, snow patrols etc etc
So the bikes have to be higher specc'd and the riders really need training so there is a rise in ther coaching element, plus the UK is now having to replace dry slopes with bike parks with uplifts, they've even put a lift in the welsh hills. XC isn't exactly booming but big mountain riding is growing the market for the boutique brands such as ours, check out Transition Bikes, some of them cost almost as much as a Laser.

Bikes have always outsold boats, just as suits have always outsold wetsuits. My point was that all the stuff I can find indicates that MTB sales world-wide are declining in favour of simpler bikes like hybrids, therefore they are not particularly a model to follow. Race participation figures show that the complicated MTB events attract far fewer participants than those that use more restricted equipment like road racing, therefore MTBs don't seem to be showing the way forward for the racing we are talking about. You yourself say that you deal in boutique brands, not the mass market.

The resort DH market has been around for a long while but can hardly be compared to the weekend club racing market we are talking about. 

Taking lessons from resort DHing sounds a bit like taking lessons from windsurfing and just moving towards boats that can only be used in a breeze by experts. Are you proposing towing boats upwind so skiff types can blast downwind?



Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy