Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.

Originally posted by Chris 249 Originally posted by G.R.F. Originally posted by Chris 249   I'd argue that the continuing popularity of boats like the Laser demonstrate that they fulfil these subjective criteria better than most other craft, and that is more important than speed.   Well I'd argue that the continued popularity of the Laser is because of entirely different commercial reasons and the market that it serves, which is a tad strange, but I think I've at long last clocked the reason, ironically from this very forum. If you look at that thread, how old were you when you started, you'll note that a disproportionate number started as kids, and as such were easily moulded into the belief model of their parents, we all know there is a huge fall out of kids, the ones with brains to think for themselves, so all you have left are the slightly retarded ones that just go on doing things the way they always were. They actually believe that a regatta with a hundred people sailing an ancient piece of dross is a good thing, a fine image to portray the sport as, some of them have even grown up to have businesses of their own and scratch a living redesigning old dross to gain pathetic market share by cheating the PY system and making their customers cheat as well. They are a strange breed, in breed if you like, but like all inbreds slightly deficient, so trying to market what in other walks of life would attract new customers in their droves, as for instance new model cars, bikes etc, just doesn't work, that and the fact there is no real distribution chain, it is a vertical model, with the driving influence one set of retards recommending their particular boat to would be neophytes and so the cycle continues. A very difficult market to penetrate, even if you had a super duper fast easy flying machine that did everything you could possibly wish of it, the retards would simply quip 'it hasn't got a class' not that new people even know what a 'class' is and so the first sales objection stops the deal, and since there is no incentivised sales person or dealer in place with a profit motive to over come it, the market works by idiots advising other idiots and is served by second hand products because it's an easy choice and there are lots of second hand lasers, what I can't understand is why a company with such a powerful brand name can be losing so much money and doing so little to bite back. There, that about sums it up. It sums up what you get when you ignore facts. From the personal level. through the regional level and to the national level, you are wrong. On the personal level, the fact that you are wrong is shown by those of us who got into Lasers from completely different sailing heritages; for example, my brother, friends and many rivals came in from a heritage of performance development classes like Cherubs, Flying Ants (baby Cherubs), Moths and NS14s.  At a regional level, many clubs without a Laser heritage have taken up the class. Over the last 10 years, the Laser has become the predominant class in my club and in my area. Six of the 8 clubs were formerly dominated by skiff types. It's obvious that clubs and sailors formerly dominated by skiff types did not shift to Lasers because their parents sailed Lasers, since their parents did not sail Lasers. At the national level, you are wrong. Countries coming new into sailing are choosing Lasers among other craft. Yes, the Laser has ISAF imprimature but so do many other classes that emerging nations are NOT choosing. The claim that the class' success relies on commercial factors is also b**locks, since the class is successful across the world despite a huge variation in the commercial factors in those areas and very different business models followed by the Laser builders. You referred to bikes; aren't you into mountain bikes, which are noted as being the section of the market that has collapsed most over the last couple of decades? Headlines say MTBing could get dumped from the Games, fields ('round here) are full of old people with no kids, and the number of people actually racing is a fraction of the number racing road or TT bikes (which are more heavily restricted in development). Why on earth would you knock a success like the Laser when you appear to promote a dwinding area like MTBs?

Sad I couldn't be there, in the end. The Lightning appears to be a boat with a fair handicap, as old boats are competitive against new ones, but one that suffers a little when racing against new Solos.

You missed a good event Rupert. John Claridge's re-modelling of Lightning was masterfull in that it did not out class older boats but..........all the subtle changes that have been made do seem to increase performance that little bit. It does not "grandfather" the older boats but I think more effort is needed to keep up. This is of course a two edged sword. all those lovelly new boats at the nationals which have displaced old boats for the second hand market (where there is a severe shortage) is a very good thing but will the most successful Lightning of all time ever win another Nationals? I doubt it but personal feelings apart it must be a good thing.

On another note. Lightning Nationals, winner 23 years old, second 27, third 25, fourth 17. An old mans boat?

An interesting comment Rupert. John did bring us a new rudder assembly but we had no time to change the pintles. Please understand that the boy was very happy with his third and the racing was very enjoyable for him (and me) but  if you give a mid fleet sailor a 1% advantage no one notices but if you give a top sailor a 1% advantage.........In benign conditions the Claridge boats just seem that little bit faster off wind. Are you suggesting that the new rudder has less drag? Boat speeds seem equal when it blows or when it is very light. It is just that bit inbetween.

Incidentally William Hill are giving seventy four 5 to 4 on for next year........I'd put a fiver on you!

Originally posted by G.R.F.   I can't pretend to know your antipodean perception, all I know and surmise is relevant to this market, but I bet I've sold more new high end Mountain Bikes than Laser have sold boats into the UK this year, including the Olympic boats they'll dump which will no doubt boost their figures. FYI as I always like to enlighten the convict mind, the Mountain Bike market has changed due to the Ski resorts increasingly opening up their slopes to downhill vacationers off season, during which they actually make more profit as the infrastructure gets addtionally used and the resort further de seasonalised and without the cost of snow management, piste tractors, snow patrols etc etc So the bikes have to be higher specc'd and the riders really need training so there is a rise in ther coaching element, plus the UK is now having to replace dry slopes with bike parks with uplifts, they've even put a lift in the welsh hills. XC isn't exactly booming but big mountain riding is growing the market for the boutique brands such as ours, check out Transition Bikes, some of them cost almost as much as a Laser.