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New Laser Rig from Doyle?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13209
Printed Date: 19 Jul 19 at 7:35pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: New Laser Rig from Doyle?
Posted By: RS400atC
Subject: New Laser Rig from Doyle?
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 8:05pm
Anyone know anything about this?
https://www.facebook.com/225846664167204/photos/pcb.1952812824803904/1952809131470940/?type=3&theater
Looks higher aspect than the current 'full rig' but that might just be that it's shorter in the foot.

Has anyone ever seen one of these?
http://forward-sailing.co.uk/en/77-new-compatible-laser-sails-with-modern-sail-cut.html
I quite like the look of that, but I've just got myself a Rooster 8.1 rig. At least that has some semblance of a PY. Hopefully it's not about to be made obsolete by a revised official Laser rig, but given the time to market for the carbon topmast, I doubt we'll see a new style sail in these parts before 2022?




Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 8:32pm
The video of Lasers using the sail, seems to be a lot of hard hiking for little speed


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 8:54pm
Originally posted by 423zero

The video of Lasers using the sail, seems to be a lot of hard hiking for little speed

Sounds familiar!
In principle though,  surely sail technology has moved on a bit from basically a triangle like the Mk2 laser sail? Even keeping the current mast, should a well designed sail with some roach and full-length battens not offer some 'automatic' gust response amd faster performance?

I think we soon get into arguing about what the aims should be. I'd like more power in light winds and still be able to sail it in 20 knots. Other people might want a wider range of helm weights. It would be good if the radial sailors and full rig sailors could have the same rag and the same PY.

I'd hate for it to be just cosmetic.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 9:27pm
For there to be any point it would need a tapered carbon mast, the current stick (even with the carbon top) is too soft at the bottom and too stiff at the top to give any sort of modern power/gust response almost regardless of what sail you put on it.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Nov 18 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Anyone know anything about this?
https://www.facebook.com/225846664167204/photos/pcb.1952812824803904/1952809131470940/?type=3&theater
Looks higher aspect than the current 'full rig' but that might just be that it's shorter in the foot.

Has anyone ever seen one of these?
http://forward-sailing.co.uk/en/77-new-compatible-laser-sails-with-modern-sail-cut.html
I quite like the look of that, but I've just got myself a Rooster 8.1 rig. At least that has some semblance of a PY. Hopefully it's not about to be made obsolete by a revised official Laser rig, but given the time to market for the carbon topmast, I doubt we'll see a new style sail in these parts before 2022?


The Rooster 8.1 is good until the full rigs are planing, at that point it is no faster round the course.

As for the Doyle rig, it is the same variation really. The Laser is what it is, there is far too much pain involved with changing the rig wholesale so it is unlikely to happen unless something drastic comes along.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 1:30pm
They need to design a sail that works within the limitations of the Laser mast, rather than shoehorn a sail that works on a better mast.


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 2:13pm
Sorry the laser needs two things to up date it above all else. A better/bigger rudder blade and a new mast. The old one is only good as scrap metal. 


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by zeon

A better/bigger rudder blade ...

The current one, changed so it can go square to the hull would be dramatic improvement....

Iíve always wondered the fascination with tinkering with the Laser rig over the years.... to be me, itís the rudder which gives me the shudders more than any other aspect of the boatís heritage.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by zeon

A better/bigger rudder blade ...

The current one, changed so it can go square to the hull would be dramatic improvement....

Iíve always wondered the fascination with tinkering with the Laser rig over the years.... to be me, itís the rudder which gives me the shudders more than any other aspect of the boatís heritage.

I am always amazed at how heavy the rudder feels whenever I jump in to one having sailed other classes.


-------------
Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 3:10pm
Yes - that was the one major noticeable Ďeww this feels sh*tí to going back into a Laser after 6 months in a d-zero.  The other was the way the deck moulding rubs the back of your calves.  As it happens, the rig, which for years of personal derision, wasnít as ghastly as I remembered.... that said it was a brand new sail and a straight mast! 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 3:14pm
The raked rudder serves to emphasise weather helm (usually heel induced). A vertical rudder would feel much nicer but would takes me acclimatisation as it might give less incentive to sail the boat flat in a breeze.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by zeon

A better/bigger rudder blade ...

The current one, changed so it can go square to the hull would be dramatic improvement....

Iíve always wondered the fascination with tinkering with the Laser rig over the years.... to be me, itís the rudder which gives me the shudders more than any other aspect of the boatís heritage.

Changing the sail is excusable because sails are the only real wearing part with a very short life.
I'd imagine that a change of sail might get voted through the CA, with sufficient notice period.
Or it could be done as a 'sub class' a bit like the Radial.

When you look at the rest of the boat, backward compatibility is the killer issue.
I can't think of a single part of it which is controlled by the class rules which you'd keep, given a free hand. Either you live with all the legacy junk or you sail something else.

My hope with the Rooster is that it will keep me more in touch with the faster boats in the fleet around the course, in light to medium breeze. More tactical on the water. For a low budget second boat it looked like a value option, with the standard rig for a windy series.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 4:52pm
Approving certain modifications would make the Laser a much nicer boat to sail even if all the components remained the same. as has been said, allowing the leading edge of the rudder blade to be vertical for one, free fixings for the toestraps so short-ar5es like me can actually sit the damn thing out and some extra flexibility in control lines and fittings would all help, cost little to nothing and could be applied to old boats as well as new.

WRT the rig, the sail wears out fairly quickly but so do the ally mast sections, they all need replacing pretty frequently to keep a boat competitive (and, in fact, once the mast/boom becomes permanently bent it is illegal anyway). A properly designed new rig would, presumably, last much longer as well as being much nicer to use.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by zeon

A better/bigger rudder blade ...

The current one, changed so it can go square to the hull would be dramatic improvement....

Iíve always wondered the fascination with tinkering with the Laser rig over the years.... to be me, itís the rudder which gives me the shudders more than any other aspect of the boatís heritage.

Changing the sail is excusable because sails are the only real wearing part with a very short life.
I'd imagine that a change of sail might get voted through the CA, with sufficient notice period.
Or it could be done as a 'sub class' a bit like the Radial.

When you look at the rest of the boat, backward compatibility is the killer issue.
I can't think of a single part of it which is controlled by the class rules which you'd keep, given a free hand. Either you live with all the legacy junk or you sail something else.

My hope with the Rooster is that it will keep me more in touch with the faster boats in the fleet around the course, in light to medium breeze. More tactical on the water. For a low budget second boat it looked like a value option, with the standard rig for a windy series.

Iíll probably get shouted down in flames, but I actually genuinely enjoyed the Rooster 8,1 rig when I used in some light wind Wednesday night races a few years ago.  I could easily see how putting one on a half decent laser (rather the £500 sh*tbox I ended up giving away), would make a reasonable club racing craft for a fraction of the cost an xERO or whatever else youíd end up sailing around on your tod.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 5:32pm
TT, why shouldn't you enjoy it? It's a boat!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 6:14pm
Laser class will not do another mast mod for years, 'so' sail designers need to design sail for existing mast, Sail that doesn't need eye watering kicker and downhaul would be a major step up, this would mean sail and mast would last longer, Sail that would work with a stiff upper mast and weaker bottom.
Hiking straps that could adjust using existing fixing points, not to difficult a tablet to swallow.
Rudder this is another easy fix.
Corners for me are biggest issue.



Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 6:35pm
There are boats that fix all these issues, but then itís no longer a Laser...


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 6:47pm
Most of these issues being described come from the boat not being setup/sailed correctly not the boat itself.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Laser class will not do another mast mod for years, 'so' sail designers need to design sail for existing mast, Sail that doesn't need eye watering kicker and downhaul would be a major step up, this would mean sail and mast would last longer, Sail that would work with a stiff upper mast and weaker bottom.
Hiking straps that could adjust using existing fixing points, not to difficult a tablet to swallow.
Rudder this is another easy fix.
Corners for me are biggest issue.


It doesn't need to be Laser, a third party can make a new rig like Rooster make the 8.1 (sure they might get a bit of flack from LP but Rooster seem to have coped ok). I'm not a sailmaker but I can't see how you could design a sail that would open the leech in response to gusts using that mast. 

Hiking straps are already adjustable, and on the water, using the standard fixings but they need to be closer to the sides (so double straps) for short people so different fixings are essential.

As you say rudders an easy fit but corners would require major surgery so probably a none starter, allowing a centre mainsheet would be an easier solution (and a stiffer boom).



-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Peaky

There are boats that fix all these issues, but then itís no longer a Laser...


Indeed.
You could fix all the superficial design flaws of the Laser, but that would only leave you with another layer of design 'features' which come from its legacy.
There are other classes you can buy into. For a lot more money.
And which of them is perfect?




Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Laser class will not do another mast mod for years, 'so' sail designers need to design sail for existing mast, Sail that doesn't need eye watering kicker and downhaul would be a major step up, this would mean sail and mast would last longer, Sail that would work with a stiff upper mast and weaker bottom.
Hiking straps that could adjust using existing fixing points, not to difficult a tablet to swallow.
Rudder this is another easy fix.
Corners for me are biggest issue.


New class rule allows a cleat to fddle with the toestrap around the course. Some smaller people than me manage to hike their radials very effectively, so it obviously isn't that bad.

What is this talk of  a 'weak' bottom mast section?
It's stout. It is a big tube with fat walls. Sectional moment of inertia that makes scaffold poles cry.
At least until it rots under the gooseneck and kicker tang...
Anyway, just as you buy a lower mast for a Radial or a 4.8, you could buy a lower mast for a Gorilla rig.Maybe thinner metal high up and sleeved low down? Need not be rocket science.

I'm not a sailmaker either, but ISTM it ought to be possible to get some gain from long top battens and roach. There is a lot of freedom there. Other classes made big gains with full length top battens or even fully-battened sails before the Laser was even around.

Biggest problem would probably be agreeing clear design goals.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Nov 18 at 11:21pm
TBF they had 'conventional' tapered masts (and, mostly, standing rigging). Gains on the Laser scaff pole will be small compared to a 'proper' mast.

The toe strap arrangement is an abomination. It doesn't matter how much you 'adjust' it you still need long legs to reach the damn thing and if you are less than 6' 4" Dead. It's not called the 'knee wrecker' for nothing....

No argument WRT design goals though......


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 09 Nov 18 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

TBF they had 'conventional' tapered masts (and, mostly, standing rigging). Gains on the Laser scaff pole will be small compared to a 'proper' mast.

The toe strap arrangement is an abomination. It doesn't matter how much you 'adjust' it you still need long legs to reach the damn thing and if you are less than 6' 4" Dead. It's not called the 'knee wrecker' for nothing....

No argument WRT design goals though......


I think you protest too much. It is far more a knee wrecker for those over 6' because the boat is too narrow. Whenever I've sailed it I ignore the toestrap and just jam my toes under the leeward plastic strip on the cockput sides. Does not take long to lose feeling in the toes and so you end up shuffling between modes as the pain gets too much.

I suspect that the Laser is at its best for those of average height, someone around 5'10" which would make total sense as the most popular dinghy in the world by far.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Nov 18 at 8:46pm
At 5' 6" that is definitely not my experience. I sailed an OK in my youth (and a couple of times since) and, despite being wider than a Laser, it has the toestraps much closer to the side decks, this makes it far more comfortable to sail.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 10 Nov 18 at 9:55am
Conversely at 6í3 in my 300 and 200 Iíve spent a lot of effort getting my toe straps further from the side decks... too many people think hiking is about getting you as far out then dropping into some awful hiking position with everything trying to lever your knees apart, better to have your legs further in and Ďlockedí in and use your upper body to provide the leverage. Never found a laser to be that bad if your hiking style is good, and thereís enough kids in 4.7 having fun and not hobbling up the beach!

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RS300, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Nov 18 at 10:03am
Hiking positions depend on the depth of the cockpit, width of the side decks and freeboard. The wide side decks, shallow cockpit and low freeboard of the Laser demand a straight leg hiking position compared to a Finn. Hiking is an unnatural pursuit however you do it but I never had any knee or back problems in my OK with it's deep cockpit and high (ish) freeboard.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 10 Nov 18 at 10:10am
So not distance of toe straps to side decks then!

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RS300, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Nov 18 at 10:40am
In proper boats that is to suit the sailor Wink

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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