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Laser vs RS Aero for 2024

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13325
Printed Date: 15 Sep 19 at 8:06am
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Topic: Laser vs RS Aero for 2024
Posted By: By The Lee
Subject: Laser vs RS Aero for 2024
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 1:35pm
Which boat do you believe should be selected and why



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 1:38pm
No idea.

As I read the evaluation form, the Laser came second primarily because of supply problems and issues with consistency of manufacture, and not because of the boat itself, which scored well on many factors. If the ILCA and new manufacturers got their act together swiftly and sorted out supply and tightened up the tolerances in the construction manual then a rescore would probably put the Laser first.

So the results lead to a nasty dilemma: do you vote for the boat that had a better score excluding the supply side, and hope that the current shenanigans will have sorted themselves out by the time the next Olympic cycle starts, or do you vote for the boat that has the better score now, even though that advantage may have vanished by then?

Glad I don't have to make that decision!


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 1:41pm
Yes I agree tough decision while I think the Aero is a great boat I believe it would be a disaster for the emerging nations program


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 1:56pm
Aero, with the reservation that could RS supply enough boats alongside the increased demand? 

Reason? :- From the POV of a grass roots sailor the only benefit the Olympics confers is the raising of the profile of Sailing as a sport. The Lasers an old boat and is showing that age a little these days, the Aero looks much more modern. Sailing is a technology based sport and many of those who might give it a try are likely to be attracted to a more modern boat.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 1:59pm
But could a non sailor notice the difference?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 2:14pm
Probably not immediately but I think the types who would give sailing/racing a serious try will research a little and be more attracted to the high tech nature of the boat than the 'different virtues' of the Laser.

edit :- I've just read Mark Jardine's article (after I posted that last), pretty much my views too (but much more elegantly worded).


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 3:15pm
What I think is strange about the trials is the quality score that the d-zero got. To be less than a third as good as the Aero and roughly a third of the Laser seems a bit of an insult to what I have always thought to be a well put together product. What happened there!? Page 10 of the report if anyone hasn't read it.  https://members.sailing.org/tools/documents/EQCSP4biiiMenWomenOnePersonDinghy-%5b24944%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://members.sailing.org/tools/documents/EQCSP4biiiMenWomenOnePersonDinghy-%5b24944%5d.pdf



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 3:23pm
It could still be any of the 4, WS has previous for ignoring the evaluation trials recommendations...

Regards production all 4 boats have the issue in terms of supply/builders and being FRAND compliant. RS and Devoti at least said they would comply with this and appoint builders to ensure supply was met. The current Laser debacle is going to roll on and on not least because WS/ILCA are no inspect the LP factory at the end of the month.

I expect the vote will likely be hurry up and wait.

As for the comments about build, I am not sure of the source but the D-Zero is pretty robust for a light boat. There were some early production niggles but you get that and the builder sorted them and made tweaks to the production method to mitigate them.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by jeffers



As for the comments about build, I am not sure of the source but the D-Zero is pretty robust for a light boat. There were some early production niggles but you get that and the builder sorted them and made tweaks to the production method to mitigate them.

The source I referred to was the World Sailing report which rated the quality relative to the other boats in the trials, the D-Zero being by far the lowest scoring on quality, which surprised me. How much worse than a Laser can it be!?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by jeffers



As for the comments about build, I am not sure of the source but the D-Zero is pretty robust for a light boat. There were some early production niggles but you get that and the builder sorted them and made tweaks to the production method to mitigate them.

The source I referred to was the World Sailing report which rated the quality relative to the other boats in the trials, the D-Zero being by far the lowest scoring on quality, which surprised me. How much worse than a Laser can it be!?

Yes and I am unsure as to where they (WS) got their info from as the boat has been pretty robust aside from a few early production niggles which were sorted by the builder as stated above.

I would guess they looked at issues vs total boats built so it may be a higher proportion as not as many of them have been built compared to the Laser and Aero.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by jeffers



As for the comments about build, I am not sure of the source but the D-Zero is pretty robust for a light boat. There were some early production niggles but you get that and the builder sorted them and made tweaks to the production method to mitigate them.

The source I referred to was the World Sailing report which rated the quality relative to the other boats in the trials, the D-Zero being by far the lowest scoring on quality, which surprised me. How much worse than a Laser can it be!?

Yes and I am unsure as to where they (WS) got their info from as the boat has been pretty robust aside from a few early production niggles which were sorted by the builder as stated above.

I would guess they looked at issues vs total boats built so it may be a higher proportion as not as many of them have been built compared to the Laser and Aero.


Reading the report a bit more it seems it was more quality process related than actual durability related which makes a lot more sense.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 4:23pm
Such a tough call, on the one hand the Laser is better for developing markets, helps entry level via trickle down and builder issues aside is a known quantity. Whereas the Aero is everything I've been asking for, light, manageable, modern and of course British with a high tech enough manufacturer capable of gearing up, eventually there might be entry level affordable trickle down, there are a couple in our club already, plus the 9 gives the Finn sailors somewhere to go even though they may be moaning right now.

I'm glad it's not my decision, however for the purposes of this little poll I've sided with the Aero.

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 4:40pm
I can't see the Aero fitting Finn sailors TBH, there's more to it than sticking a big rig on the boat.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 14 May 19 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I can't see the Aero fitting Finn sailors TBH, there's more to it than sticking a big rig on the boat.


As a Finn size (6'6") sailor I've got on surprisingly well with my Aero. I was initially reluctant to switch from a Phantom, but a few test sails in light and strong winds convinced me. Curiously I find it easier to sail the 7 to handicap than the 9....


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 1:14am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Probably not immediately but I think the types who would give sailing/racing a serious try will research a little and be more attracted to the high tech nature of the boat than the 'different virtues' of the Laser.

edit :- I've just read Mark Jardine's article (after I posted that last), pretty much my views too (but much more elegantly worded).

Why would anyone who wants a high tech forward looking boat buy something that is basically similar to a 1960s Shelley Moth, slower than an RS300 or '80s Magnum or an ancient International Canoe?

If high tech attracts new sailors, why is participation apparently dropping sharply at a time when the speed of the fastest dinghy class has pretty much doubled and the speed of the high-profile AC boats has tripled?

If high tech attracts people to water sports, why are slow low-tech pop-out kayaks and SUPs doing so well?

How many people who want to give sailing or any other sport a "serious try" spend the coin required to get an Aero instead of an old Laser, Solo, or whatever?

With respect to Mark, it's interesting that these days the people who write about sailing so often effectively say "hey, you people - go out and spend lots of money on new boats while I sail my old one". There is apparently a yawning gap between what writers and "authorities" do themselves and what they tell other people to do. When the sport was booming, the people who were guiding it actually put their money where there mouth is, which may have given them a better appreciation of the values of the typical sailor.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 6:54am
With the Aero, the hi-tech is behind the scenes. The boat is as simple to sail as pretty much any single sail sitting out dinghy.

Hi-tech in a shouty way is certainly of limited appeal.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 7:35am
I'd be amazed if a significant number of the Finn sailors went over to the Aero (if it gets in)

Despite the obvious helm weight differences, they are totally different - one is essentially a simple beach boat (not that there is anything wrong with that) that will be even more weight sensitive than a Laser (due to its light weight) and the other is highly technical and developed (each Finn and rig is slightly different)

The whole approach would be different - far more suited to the Laser sailors

Also the Aero 9 (men) would be far too powerful for some of the smaller guys and, similarly, the 7 will be way to powerful for the ladies. The 5.7m Radial was thought to be too powerful for lots of the ladies ?



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 8:38am
I don't think it's about them buying an Aero so much as aspiring to one (or whatever) The Aero looks (and is) much more modern than the Laser. Your new cyclist doesn't usually go out and buy the latest, top of the range carbon TT bike but he definitely want's something that looks a bit like one.

The reason that sailors are not buying into high performance boats like Moth, Musto and 49er etc is simply that they are so damn difficult sail and require a huge investment in time to master. The Aero, D-Zero etc and straightforward boats that anybody can sail but use just enough high tech materials to give a feeling of being 21st century designs.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 8:43am
There seems to be a lack of discussion on what is one of the most important points to me, which is ease of use.  I love a tinkerers boat, but am at a stage of life where leisure time is limited.  The positives of a simple to rig, sail & recover boat count for a lot.  The aero from that point of view seems to be a good improvement over the laser (lower weight and hoisting sail).  For grassroots, casuals and the time poor a boat which can be rigged and on the water in a really short amount of time should be a huge bonus.  The laser is not bad in this respect, but getting the rig in and away on a crowded concrete slip can be a huge pain.  Not that this this really matters when selecting the olympic class, but for all the other factors that people keep mentioning, it feels like something being overlooked.


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 10:22am
I await the normal RS action when they introduce the new model Aero+ with a price hike for the 2028 games


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 10:52am


Originally posted by rich96

I'd be amazed if a significant number of the Finn sailors went over to the Aero (if it gets in)



Seriously how many 'Finn sailors' want to be actual Finn sailors rather than Olympic aspirants, they'll sail whatever gets them there.

And what Rupert said. The Aero is very accessible.

The Aero also has enough volume to cope with heavier sailors, which the Laser doesn't.

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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 11:25am
time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.


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RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 11:28am
Originally posted by iGRF



Originally posted by rich96

I'd be amazed if a significant number of the Finn sailors went over to the Aero (if it gets in)



Seriously how many 'Finn sailors' want to be actual Finn sailors rather than Olympic aspirants, they'll sail whatever gets them there.

Well, presumably the 200-300 sailors who turn out to the master worlds want to be actual finn sailors rather than Olympic aspirants.

But I guess you're talking about those doing the world cup circuit. 

If the Aero can really carry 85 or 90 kilo competitively then I don't think that will be much of a stretch for those at 100 kg to get to if they're serious about the Olympics. It could be a decent middle ground between the laser and finn. 


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RS800 1144


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Oli

time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.

My wife is into equestrian events and horses haven't been re-designed recently. LOL They're still lighter than a Finn though.


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Steve B
RS300 411
D-Zero 11

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
D-Zero page


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 11:43am
For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, 

They still run Marathons after 1000+ years, what's the issue? The pinnacle of sailing is the nut on the end of the tiller - it's their skill and athleticism, the idea that you need a "modern" higher tech boat to show that off is a myth.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by PeterG

the idea that you need a "modern" higher tech boat to show that off is a myth.

If that's the case why have we lost the Star, Finn, FD, Europe and Windglider? TBF you don't as you say, 'need' a modern class  just to show off athleticism but if that's all there was to it we may as well bin sailing and just stick with the core 'athletic' pursuits of track and field.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 12:43pm
Why? Because shipping Aeros will be cheaper than shipping Finns for a start. Wether you're shipping them for contests or just for resale in far flung continents, that's why, commercial modernity...

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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 2:20pm
Its a bit of a shame that the magic of the Olympic sailing and its boats is disappearing though

The boats we have lost were indeed vert interesting and all unique in their own way -b Stars, Finn, Soling, Tornado, Europe etc etc

Now the Olympic fleet is essentially mass produced off the shelf kit. That's not necessarily a bad thing - its just different and, to me, far less interesting.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 2:30pm
I think we need a mix of modern cutting edge boats like Nacra and 49er, some old tactical/technical boats like the Europe and Star and a brute force (in addition to all the other stuff) boat like the Finn for the big strong lads.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Steve411

Originally posted by Oli

time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.

My wife is into equestrian events and horses haven't been re-designed recently. LOL They're still lighter than a Finn though.

neither have the humans that ride them (discounting carbon blades / asthma inhalers) but the kit they wear has, helmets, inflatable vests etc.  Bikes golf clubs, tennis rackets..... also i would class the horse as part of the competitor package, like a blind skier and their guide. 


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RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Steve411

Originally posted by Oli

time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.

My wife is into equestrian events and horses haven't been re-designed recently. LOL They're still lighter than a Finn though.

My sister-in-law does equestrian events too. My brother says "Becci's at a horse-regatta this weekend"



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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 3:03pm
how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.


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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by PeterG

the idea that you need a "modern" higher tech boat to show that off is a myth.

If that's the case why have we lost the Star, Finn, FD, Europe and Windglider? TBF you don't as you say, 'need' a modern class  just to show off athleticism but if that's all there was to it we may as well bin sailing and just stick with the core 'athletic' pursuits of track and field.

Well you might find showing off your sailing skills on the track a little tricky!

But I think my point holds - it's perfectly possible for "pinnacle" level sailing to be performed in a 40+ year old boat. That doesn't mean Olympic boats should never change, but that a view that an older boat must inevitably be excluded is mistaken.

There is a lot to be said for the Star and the Finn as Olympic boats, they provided excellent platforms for top level sailing - it's a shame they have gone. But I also accept that doesn't mean they could never be switched out.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 8:17pm
Does the Aero look more modern to the masses? To us who are informed about the Aeros improvements it feel obvious. but the visible differences are marginal.

I was able to show pics of Aeros and lasers to a group of none yotters at work and mostly they couldn’t tell the difference.

The general response was; pointy white hull/ 1 white sail/ 1 person. “who cares, it makes no sense” was the worst comment, the more technically minded felt the greater rake, pointyness (?) and the deck hugging sail of the Laser looked more aggressive. Not exactly empirical but even after I explained the difference they maintained their stance.

I think we demand an upgrade for our own inner circle, for most it scarcely matters, the idea of “better”, really only applies when you have a frame of reference. For that reason I think worldwide access to cheap boat I recognise is better. Eventually that could be the Aero but not yet.

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Reach For The Pies.


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by E.J.

Does the Aero look more modern to the masses? To us who are informed about the Aeros improvements it feel obvious. but the visible differences are marginal.

I was able to show pics of Aeros and lasers to a group of none yotters at work and mostly they couldn’t tell the difference.

The general response was; pointy white hull/ 1 white sail/ 1 person. “who cares, it makes no sense” was the worst comment, the more technically minded felt the greater rake, pointyness (?) and the deck hugging sail of the Laser looked more aggressive. Not exactly empirical but even after I explained the difference they maintained their stance.

I think we demand an upgrade for our own inner circle, for most it scarcely matters, the idea of “better”, really only applies when you have a frame of reference. For that reason I think worldwide access to cheap boat I recognise is better. Eventually that could be the Aero but not yet.


I agree not a fan of the high boom looks of the aero


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 9:17pm
It’s worth noting that evaluation report did not say the Aero was a better boat to sail than the Laser, it merely concluded that the Aero had better quality control processes and fewer problems with supply chain.


Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 10:13pm
Sexy, where do I get one.

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Reach For The Pies.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 15 May 19 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by Oli

how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.

If sailing was all about developing the newest technology then there would be no Olympic dinghies at all. Dinghies are slower, older and more expensive than kitefoilers, more expensive than windsurfers, and slower than cats. Dinghies have no justification from a purely technological viewpoint.
 
From an eco point of view it's lunacy to make the existing Olympic programme Lasers get replaced by Aeros. How much eco damage is done if every boat from an existing fleet (and we NEED fleets, not just one or two boats for each country) is put aside and replaced by new boats?

It's also interesting to try to define what an "outdated" method is. One way is to look at the most popular modern construction method, which is still probably pretty close to the Laser's construction.  The Aero is not new technology either - you could have built in the '70s. If the Olympics is meant to show modern design then the Aero should not be in it.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 12:02am
Originally posted by E.J.

Does the Aero look more modern to the masses? To us who are informed about the Aeros improvements it feel obvious. but the visible differences are marginal.

I was able to show pics of Aeros and lasers to a group of none yotters at work and mostly they couldn’t tell the difference.

The general response was; pointy white hull/ 1 white sail/ 1 person. “who cares, it makes no sense” was the worst comment, the more technically minded felt the greater rake, pointyness (?) and the deck hugging sail of the Laser looked more aggressive. Not exactly empirical but even after I explained the difference they maintained their stance.

I think we demand an upgrade for our own inner circle, for most it scarcely matters, the idea of “better”, really only applies when you have a frame of reference. For that reason I think worldwide access to cheap boat I recognise is better. Eventually that could be the Aero but not yet.

Well said. Years ago I had similar issues working in magazines. Art directors are trained to know what appeals to the general population, and from that point of view they tended to ignore what we sailors thought was cool.

On a similar note, it's interesting to see what professional illustrators and professional and amateur artists do when they paint or draw sailboats. These are among the first few images that come up for me when I google "sailboat illustration".


When the well-reputed New Yorker did an article on Olympic sailing at Weymouth, it used this illustration;



Given that the people who are trained to see things see them with so little accuracy, why do we believe that non sailors can tell the difference between a new boat and a '70s one?


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 12:35am
Originally posted by Oli

time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.

The modern racing bike is basically a 1934 vintage restricted class design in many ways - that was the year they banned the recumbents which go twice as fast.  Bikes are quite tightly controlled in design so that they are slow but practical. My normal commuting bike is banned from most Olympic events because it is too fast and my mother in law could ride it. That is arguably much more restrictive than what happens in sailing.

Rowing bans craft like Decavitator which is about twice as fast as a shell over short distances and Flying Fish II  which is faster than a single over the 2000 m Olympic course.

Image result for "Flying Fish II" hydrofoil

Rowing has also banned things like sliding outriggers, which are considerably faster than the legal systems. 

If we want to show the pinnacle of modern sailing design, in many ways this is the way to do it;




It's faster, cheaper, looks cool - if being modern is what counts how can a Laser, Aero, skiff or dinghy foiler compete with kites?




Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 12:56am
Originally posted by Ardea

There seems to be a lack of discussion on what is one of the most important points to me, which is ease of use.  I love a tinkerers boat, but am at a stage of life where leisure time is limited.  The positives of a simple to rig, sail & recover boat count for a lot.  The aero from that point of view seems to be a good improvement over the laser (lower weight and hoisting sail).  For grassroots, casuals and the time poor a boat which can be rigged and on the water in a really short amount of time should be a huge bonus.  The laser is not bad in this respect, but getting the rig in and away on a crowded concrete slip can be a huge pain.  Not that this this really matters when selecting the olympic class, but for all the other factors that people keep mentioning, it feels like something being overlooked.

It's a very good issue to raise, but isn't the problem the fact that "ease of use" varies so much from person to person? Some people trail their boats, some store them in low racks inside clubhouses, some people leave them in dinghy parks, even your attitude towards your sails and whether you use a variety of different sails (ie a normal one, a beaten up training one you roll around the mast, and a new one you never allow to flap or wrinkle) will change your preferences radically. At my old clubs, a heavy boat was a massive pain due to the long drags over soft sand. At my more recent clubs, boat weight is pretty much irrelevant. Actually personally I've found that having the right gear is more important than having the right boat; our 185kg Formula 18 cat is easier to move around than my Canoe or my Moths were, and the logistics in some ways are easier than with our 100kg Formula 16 cat. In other ways it's a right pig!


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:14am
Its interesting that the evaluation found that the 'ideal' weight for the Laser is now 80 - 85kg ?

Wasn't long ago that the max to be really competitive was about 80 Kg?

I'd have thought that 75 - 82kg was more likely ?

The ideal ladies weights for the Aero 7 (actually 7.4) and Laser Radial are also quoted as the same - how can than be when the Aero 7 has a larger rig than a Laser standard ?

The weight range for the Aero 7 is 68-73kg. That's approx. 11 - 11.5 stone - quite high ?

All in all, as said by others, none sailors wouldn't have a clue between all these boats.

Out of all of them however the Aero probably looks the most 'holiday beach boat' - although it's supporters would not agree.

What stands out is what little real progress has been made since the 1969 Laser design - the newer versions may be a little quicker, a little nicer to sail etc but its all very marginal really.





Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 7:35am
Originally posted by rich96

The ideal ladies weights for the Aero 7 (actually 7.4) and Laser Radial are also quoted as the same - how can than be when the Aero 7 has a larger rig than a Laser standard ?

I imagine the Aero rig will depower a lot more easily and efficiently than the Laser one.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 8:12am
Yes - probably so but the Aero 7 is the best part of 2m2 bigger than the Radial ?

Also why do most men sail the 7 ?


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 8:17am
Originally posted by rich96

Yes - probably so but the Aero 7 is the best part of 2m2 bigger than the Radial ?

Also why do most men sail the 7 ?

Because they are not as fit as an Olympic athlete perhaps


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RS300, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 8:44am
If you look at all the development classes where boat weight has dropped, and rig developments have occurred, the sailor weight has also dropped. As long as you can hang in upwind, you can gain downwind. I sail an Aero 7, and was more comfortable in a radial before I swapped. The aero just gives you a much greater amount of sail control. I have tried a 9, which I can sail to about a F3-4 before upwind drag causes to much of an issue, but was a massive workout, a bit like when I borrowed a Phantom.
Having said that. Come on laser, get your act together, the main reason I swapped was to move to a more fun less intense class. Don’t let the Olympic brigade spoil my new sailing passion.

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Andy Mck


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 8:45am
And, apparently, a Laser 1 mainsail is actually considerably more than 7m2 as that measurement doesn't include luff, leech and foot rounds (max luff x max foot /2 = 7.0281)

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 9:26am
The arguments 'pro-Laser' today are very similar to the sort of things being used to defend/promote pre-existing 'older' classes when the Laser was 'new' and before it was formally introduced to the Olympics.

So nothing really changes ... especially resistance of this very human sort to change.   We are mostly conservative beings I guess... There was little wrong with the FD .. or the Soling  ... or the Firefly etc if we had always followed the same lines of argument ...  (add your own favorite (now) ex-Olympic class name ).   

'Lobbying' by the established can prevail though  .... in the absence of  sports leadership.



Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 9:57am
Bring back the firefly
And add 2 boat team racing to allow tv.
The Wilson was epic this year.

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Andy Mck


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 11:29am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

time to move on, average punter may not know the difference, but style wise aero looks better /modern imo out of those two. 

For those that do know better well why are we stuck with a 40/50 year old boat, nothing wrong with that in itself for sub-Olympian level sailing but for the pinnacle of the sailing, its not really showing the sport off is it.  We don't use 50 year old designed equipment in other equipment heavy sports.

The modern racing bike is basically a 1934 vintage restricted class design in many ways - that was the year they banned the recumbents which go twice as fast.  Bikes are quite tightly controlled in design so that they are slow but practical. My normal commuting bike is banned from most Olympic events because it is too fast and my mother in law could ride it. That is arguably much more restrictive than what happens in sailing.

Rowing bans craft like Decavitator which is about twice as fast as a shell over short distances and Flying Fish II  which is faster than a single over the 2000 m Olympic course.

Rowing has also banned things like sliding outriggers, which are considerably faster than the legal systems. 


indeed, but the olypic bikes not made of steel and wool, theyre a modern design and build, just like a formula 1 car is just a car, same base design, just tweaked.

you can always go to the pinnacle of any design and it will be superseeded the next day (moth) but why not update just a little? isn't that what happens when a new boat gets selected, like the laser did all those years ago?




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RS800 868
Marconi SC


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 11:32am
Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.

 
From an eco point of view it's lunacy to make the existing Olympic programme Lasers get replaced by Aeros. How much eco damage is done if every boat from an existing fleet (and we NEED fleets, not just one or two boats for each country) is put aside and replaced by new boats?


guess it would need to be measured at whats the best outcome, is making thousands of new lasre each year using less eco methods better than making a modern boat that has a more eco friendly construction? in either case the loss of the "existing fleet" is the same, new builds replace the old.


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Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Cirrus

The arguments 'pro-Laser' today are very similar to the sort of things being used to defend/promote pre-existing 'older' classes when the Laser was 'new' and before it was formally introduced to the Olympics.

So nothing really changes ... especially resistance of this very human sort to change.   We are mostly conservative beings I guess... There was little wrong with the FD .. or the Soling  ... or the Firefly etc if we had always followed the same lines of argument ...  (add your own favorite (now) ex-Olympic class name ).   

'Lobbying' by the established can prevail though  .... in the absence of  sports leadership.


Really? Can you point me to many people who said similar things, such as "the Soling is the most popular yacht in the world" or "the FD is the world's most popular dinghy"?

Where in the world did anyone ever say "the emerging sailing nations have spent years building up FD fleets because they are cheap and they cannot afford to switch to the Laser"?

Similarly, no one ever claimed that the Firefly was never the world's most popular and widespread boat. Surely if you are going to make claims like that you are going to have to provide some evidence.

By the way, the classes you seem to espouse are pretty far on the conservative side of sailing. The Icon was a nice boat, but largely an upgrade on a 35 year old design. The Blaze seems fun, but it's no really any different in concept to a boat could have turned up to the 1960s trials that chose the Contender. Arguably your own choices seem to be those of someone who is quite resistant to major change.




Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.

 
From an eco point of view it's lunacy to make the existing Olympic programme Lasers get replaced by Aeros. How much eco damage is done if every boat from an existing fleet (and we NEED fleets, not just one or two boats for each country) is put aside and replaced by new boats?


guess it would need to be measured at whats the best outcome, is making thousands of new lasre each year using less eco methods better than making a modern boat that has a more eco friendly construction? in either case the loss of the "existing fleet" is the same, new builds replace the old.

But how many new builds will be built to replace the old?  My Laser fleet, for example, has lots of boats about 20 years old. The average age of a Master's nationals winning boat in Oz seems to be 12 years. 

I've been looking at Singapore as an example of an emerging sailing nation that has stated that growing fleets, rather than individuals, is vital. The top Laser in their biggest regatta was 12 years old and the second local boat was 10 years old, although most boats were newer.

So there are lots of winning boats that are about 12 years old. In that time, some 27,000 boats have been built. So the Laser class arguably has a reservoir of at least that many fully competitive boats that upgrading sailors can buy, that champions can win on, and that provide the competitive fleets that make Laser sailing so popular. 

For the Aero to get to that stage they'll have to build a similar number of boats - and in a hurry. Is that going to be more eco-sensitive than sticking with Lasers? Is there anything actually stopping Lasers from moving to more renewable resources while maintaining that stock of older boats?



Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 2:52pm
Interesting to see in the report that only one of the women evaluators felt they were big enough to sail the Aero 7. And only half the men felt they were big enough for the Aero 9.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 3:39pm
By the way, the classes you seem to espouse are pretty far on the conservative side of sailing.....

You are missing the point totally here .. I am not proposing ANY future classes myself. None of the officially  assessed craft are at the cuttng edge of things either, whoever sugegsted that ?  The point is that the Laser came in because people of the day were prepared to really consider the 'new' and alternatives.... and move on from the conservative arguments of that time and  day. 

.....Today the same arguments are being used to 'defend' the same boat - the Laser  - Do you not see any irony whatsever ??   I've owned six of them over the years - but frankly that was then - this is now.  Cheer up chicken - you are still very likely to see the Laser retained in part  or in whole and for another cycle yet imo.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Interesting to see in the report that only one of the women evaluators felt they were big enough to sail the Aero 7. And only half the men felt they were big enough for the Aero 9.


Yes - these two boats are not for usual sized ladies and prob not usual sized men


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 4:40pm
So the 96 games was the first one for the Laser, I believe. So the class was 25 at that point. So nothing new. What was new was the idea that a simple, popular class, sailed the world over, would be used.

I can't see how adding another 25 years has changed anything. The Laser is still the only boat to meet those criteria. It made it there without Olympic help. Maybe the Aero in time will get, if not the same, at least sufficient coverage to be seen in the same light.

Of course, the criteria might change, and most current Olympic classes have been invented for the games, from Finn to Nacra 17. Is it just Laser and 470 that had life before the games? The Aero would at least have grass roots sailing in some parts of the world.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by andymck

Bring back the firefly
And add 2 boat team racing to allow tv.
The Wilson was epic this year.


As I've said before, this, with one boat sailed by 2 women, and the other by a Finn sized bloke.

Ticks lots of boxes.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Is it just Laser and 470 that had life before the games?

49er did (just).


Posted By: Oinks
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 10:53pm
Who effing cares. Whatever boat is chosen, the guys who do the Olympic stuff will sail em and bin em. They just want to sit on something and get a medal. It really doesn't make an effing ounce of difference to what most of us do each Sunday.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 12:15am
Originally posted by Cirrus

By the way, the classes you seem to espouse are pretty far on the conservative side of sailing.....

You are missing the point totally here .. I am not proposing ANY future classes myself. None of the officially  assessed craft are at the cuttng edge of things either, whoever sugegsted that ?  The point is that the Laser came in because people of the day were prepared to really consider the 'new' and alternatives.... and move on from the conservative arguments of that time and  day. 

.....Today the same arguments are being used to 'defend' the same boat - the Laser  - Do you not see any irony whatsever ??   I've owned six of them over the years - but frankly that was then - this is now.  Cheer up chicken - you are still very likely to see the Laser retained in part  or in whole and for another cycle yet imo.

I'm not missing the point - the issue is that your claims are incorrect. The arguments used to defend the FD and bring in the Laser etc were NOT the same arguments that are being used to defend the Laser. This is easy to prove - look for example at a Washington Post article that says the Laser was brought in "to open a door to young racers who lack the finances to mount expensive campaigns in more costly boats...the little Laser is supposed to be the working-class sailor's route to the world's top competition." As Rupert noted, other arguments in favour of bringing in the Laser reflected the class' popularity.

The FD's defence was NOT like the defence the Laser class is putting up - see for example the summary from the class in the Spring 1992 Trapeze magazine. I'm about to leave for a training weekend but I can find more evidence later. But basically, since the facts in the situations are actually completely different, there is no irony whatsoever!

It's not necessarily "conservative" to say that a class should stay in the Games. Just as the boats you fostered can be called "conservative" but are actually fine boats that could be chosen by someone for perfectly logical reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism, a belief that sailing would be better off with the Laser in the Olympics is something that can be the result of perfectly logical reasons that have nothing to do with conservatism. Arguably, labelling a choice as "conservative" is merely arguing the man in some ways.

Finally, as noted earlier if favouring the Laser is called "conservative" then the same label can be thrown at those who favour the Aero instead of a kitefoiler, Waszp, etc. In fact it does seem odd to campaign for such a minor change to "move sailing forward" when the outer reaches of sailing have gone so far beyond the Aero and Laser in many ways. Just look at speed as one measure. The Aero is 2.5% quicker than the Laser, but the Waszp has a provisional yardstick of 60% quicker than the Laser and the kite is much quicker still. If a newer and faster class is the aim, why take on all the pain for so little gain?  If we want to "take sailing forward", why only go forward by inches instead of by miles? 

PS - since you appear to think my position is based on personal preference, it's relevant to say that after being in various classes that have been adopted or dropped, I would personally prefer if my classes were NOT in the Games so I am NOT speaking from self interest.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 12:34am
Regarding an earlier post; there was a small Finn class in existence before it was selected for Scandinavian competition, which then led to Games selection. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that the plans were published in a magazine and 25 sailors had built them, Sarby would not have entered the trials because the Finn had failed to win the design competition.

The FD was selected as an International class before it was selected for the Games and I think it was reasonably popular before it was selected. Obviously the Dragon, Yngling, Star and Europe had existing fleets.

One interesting point is how often the advocates for new classes have been wrong with their predictions. When Paul Henderson was promoting the adoption of a skiff, he said he thought (or hoped) it would lead to a host of similar classes, just as the "FD trials" had spurred the development of the 420, 470, Korsar, 490, 505 and a host of other trapeze boats. History has shown us that the 49er hasn't had anything like that sort of impact.

Similarly, the RSX was supposed to link Olympic sailors with mainstream windsurfers, which it hasn't. Arguably the gap between the mainstream and the Olympic and feeder class has widened since the RSX came along. Olympic match racing didn't spur more widespread match racing, as they claimed it would. The Nacra 17 doesn't seem to have kicked off widespread interest in foiling cats. Perhaps the Olympics have much less ability to influence the mainstream of the sport than we think. That makes one wonder how much Olympic sailing can influence non-sailors, too.


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Oli

Originally posted by CT249

Originally posted by Oli

how many run the marathon in sandals/ barefoot?

why develop anything at all? lets all race boats akin to the golden hinde...

like i said nothing wrong with a laser but for example why not look at it from an eco front, we shouldn't be using new built boats built to outdated methods, sailing has sold itself, in part, as an eco sport, and from what i see it seriously misses that remit.

time to evolve.

 
From an eco point of view it's lunacy to make the existing Olympic programme Lasers get replaced by Aeros. How much eco damage is done if every boat from an existing fleet (and we NEED fleets, not just one or two boats for each country) is put aside and replaced by new boats?


guess it would need to be measured at whats the best outcome, is making thousands of new lasre each year using less eco methods better than making a modern boat that has a more eco friendly construction?

It would be interesting to do the sums on the renewability side. I recently checked out the ecological cost of carbon fibre big boats, and it was horrifying in terms of greenhouse gases alone. Is 'glass any better? Carbon spars consume lots of electricity but so would the Laser's tin rig. 

Perhaps the whole area has been explored with so little detail that we really don't know which option is the best?
 




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 6:06am
High tech boat building can be horribly wasteful. Peel ply, bleeder film, vac bags...


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:37am
Originally posted by Oinks

Who effing cares. Whatever boat is chosen, the guys who do the Olympic stuff will sail em and bin em. They just want to sit on something and get a medal. It really doesn't make an effing ounce of difference to what most of us do each Sunday.

100% with you on this!


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H2 #115


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:40am
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by Oinks

Who effing cares.
100% with you on this!


As the subject has created about three times as much activity here and on SA as anything else in the last month or so its quite clear that lots of people care.



Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 8:37am
......its quite clear that lots of people care.

But usually not the ones who do know what will really happen now !  Wink    My 'vote' would be on a standard fudge that keeps the 'Laser' (if we can still call it that !!) in the Olympic circus for now in part or in whole.  The assessment trials, some cynics will say,  were really all about sorting out the politics of the process so selection decisons could not easily be challenged in the future ('They' were already subject to having the bars rattled, after all, by one wantabe supplier with a related gripe so I hear).  This might even have had some bearing on things as they were assessed some could speculate ...

The bonus of this however was that the Laser 'family' if you can call it that  (that VERY dysfunctional family mind you) got a couple of shots across the bows to 'encourage' them to sort themselves out post haste.   If they don't, and there are few public signs of it most can see,  then this hardly supports their position in the future. 

But in the end .... yes its right not many in the greater world do really care that much except as ball to kick around these forums. 


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:23am
And we present to you the Aero 6...




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RS800 1144


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:27am
I think this is the right move on the part of rs as the 7 was obviously unsuitable for women


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 7:59am
I am waiting for the Aero 8 ... I do like symmetry 

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 12:22pm
Council Votes for Aero


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 12:26pm
?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Council Votes for Aero

I thought it was the Equipment committee has recommended the Aero rather than the selection committee.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 2:00pm
Yes my mistake equipment committee


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 18 May 19 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Yes my mistake equipment committee

No doubt council will back the status quo. ...


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 2:56pm
Council rejects equipment committee proposal onto another vote to decide now


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 3:05pm
Laser wins


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 3:56pm
...... well who on earth is truly surprised ??    Widely predicted of course ...... 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by By The Lee

Laser wins
by a bigger margin than t'referendum too....... Ouch

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 4:11pm
Personally I think this is best for both classes the aero is what you sail if you don't want to race but not be trampled by a bunch of super competitive athletes and the laser is for those who either do or have a low budget or have want to follow the Olympic pathway


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 4:50pm
Just read the article and I'd say the Laser is buggered anyway as they have to have their FRAND agreements sorted by August 1st which seems extremely unlikely.....



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 5:01pm
Phew
Almost took the photos to put my aero up for sale.
Can keep it now :)

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Andy Mck


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Just read the article and I'd say the Laser is buggered anyway as they have to have their FRAND agreements sorted by August 1st which seems extremely unlikely.....

1st of August is not time at all considering as they don’t seam to be talking about the two person long distance boat. Fingers crossed - it is the best boat for global inclusion, which is the whole point 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 7:31pm
Hmmm

Cant wait to see how this is going to work.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 7:51pm
Great publicity for the Aero without ever having to go through the whole selling of soul thing.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 19 May 19 at 8:06pm
The Contender. 

Enough said....... 


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 6:55am
I know we are a long way off but having thought about this:

ILCA doesn't have licensed builder in Europe.

As it stands the only place you can get a "Laser" from is from PS - this will be a Laser, but PS are no longer currently WS licenced.

So as things are nobody can legally supply the boats for Paris 2024. Which bunch of pillocks though that this would be a good idea? They may have killed the ILCA off before it even starts because the financial might of Mr Rastegar could now just litigate this into the long grass. If he can prevent the ILCA from appointing a builder or supplying boats in Europe then WS will have no choice but to use PS hulls or use another class.

This is going to be interesting g to watch. Maybe the FRAND restrictions will see the Laser deselected? I actually think its the best boat for the job if im honest, but the political baggage makes it untenable.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by By The Lee

Yes my mistake equipment committee

No doubt council will back the status quo. ...

As predicted. 

I feel bad for all the suppliers who wasted significant sums participating in sham trials. 

Now the Aero needs to see if they can endure beyond winning trials and then being overlooked. Just like the Contender and Musto Skiff before them. 


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 7:07pm
I agree the guys at RS must be compeltely gutted, and after the RS 900 business , why bother with it all it is a stich -up


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 7:12pm
RS can be happy they have had the same number of votes on this forum to match number of boats sold so far this year


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

I agree the guys at RS must be compeltely gutted, and after the RS 900 business , why bother with it all it is a stich -up

And the other RS, the X, is likely to lose the windsurfing spot ;)


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 7:21pm
I disagree council is made up of representatives of the world MNAs if you don't like the decision then blame your federations. Whilst the equipment committee thought change was reasonable obviously the federations of the world felt otherwise. If you want your equipment to win you have to convince the equipment committee AND the MNAs 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 May 19 at 11:41pm
And MNA's like lots of promises of favours and kit at great prices, all wrapped up in an envelope... don't they?

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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 7:50am
Originally posted by 423zero

RS can be happy they have had the same number of votes on this forum to match number of boats sold so far this year.

Seriously? Or is that a joke? I ask as I am interested in whether the whole Brexit thing has affected sales of boats!


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H2 #115


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 8:59am
It's as serious as Jeremy Kyle blaming Brexit for getting the sack


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 9:04am
So they are just not selling boats - sorry but sarcasm is hard to interpret on a forum when you are thick!

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H2 #115


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 9:12am
Sorry H2, not being sarcastic, it was a joke, both posts, problem with using a phone to post, I can't see imoji's on mine.
Added imoji's


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Sorry H2, not being sarcastic, it was a joke, both posts, problem with using a phone to post, I can't see imoji's on mine.
Added imoji's

That is a bit of a silly joke 423zero. Clap
RS Aeros sales are doing just fine with the 2,000th RS Aero (sail number 3000) set to be delivered next month, around the time of the Class' 5th birthday.
I don't see much evidence of Brexit having had much effect on sales, but quite likely it has.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 3:38pm
Peter,
You were very quiet until I owned up to joke


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Peter,
You were very quiet until I owned up to joke

Surprised it took him that long to be fair, he is their paid class manager.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
D-Zero GBR188 https://www.facebook.com/groups/dinghies/permalink/2384300638276034/?sale_post_id=2384300638276034" rel="nofollow - For Sale
Ex Laser/8.1
Ex



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