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Start of race

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13329
Printed Date: 26 Jun 19 at 10:32am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Start of race
Posted By: Henmch
Subject: Start of race
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 1:56pm
Two dinghies are approaching the committee boat end of a starting line in a force 2. A is the windward boat and is about 3/4 boat length to windward of B who has an overlap. They are on Parallel courses. A is in an unfavourable position in close proximity to the committee boat. B ( the leeward boat) doesnt indicate that they are going to luff until they are in a position where A cannot respond due to their closeness to the committee boat.
A is obviously not entitled to mark room but is unable to bail out of the start by the time B starts to luff. What should As response be?



Replies:
Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:35pm
I read something similar in a Y&Y article just the other day from Mark Rushall about a similar incident. I'l see if I can find it

The big tell tale sign if A is trying to keep clear is rudder position. If the rudder is trying to bear the boat off then they aren't doing enough to keep clear. If the rudder is on the centre line but they are basically touching the CV A is safe as it can not do anything more. If A's rudder is trying to head up then they are doing all they can to keep clear.

Key words as always are Time and Opportunity


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 16 May 19 at 6:42pm


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:29am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
Key words as always are Time and Opportunity

NO THEY ARE NOT.

These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.

All the words you need are in the definition of Room:

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 8:43am
To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Brass


Originally posted by ClubRacer

Key words as always are Time and Opportunity


NO THEY ARE NOT.
These words have not been in the rules for more than 20 years.
All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
<blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;">
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isnt a sufficient way to summarise that definition?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:30am
Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 10:29am
Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 


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RS800 1144


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 

OP scenario was that B changes course to windward (luffs) A into the committee vessel.

I agree that this doesn't look like a rule 15 situation, but it certainly is a rule 16.

If a does her best to keep clear of B, but is unable to do so [without touching the committee vessel], then she is being denied room to keep clear, and sailing within the room to which she is entitled and exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21).  That would be A's protest.

B could certainly protest if she thought that A could have kept clear.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by Brass


All the words you need are in the definition of Room:
Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


Can you explain how time and opportunity isnt a sufficient way to summarise that definition?

Originally posted by JimC

Phrases that are no longer in the rules were surely removed for good reason, as the aim is always to clarify and simplify (often of course contradictory aims). So if one goes back to language that has been removed its liable to result in less clarity and more confusion.

Also, the focus of the definition of Room is on space not on time.

While I wasn't much involved in rules in 1995, I think that removal of references to 'opportunity' was intended to remove any idea that hailing was a required component of an entitlement to room.


Posted By: Henmch
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 2:52pm
Thank you for your responses to my original question which confirm my understanding.

If it was possible for the Windward boat A to keep clear of B by accelerating and crossing the line early even if there was for example a flag U flying could the leeward boat argue that this was boat As correct action to take to respond to leeward boat Bs luff even though boat A would be disqualified in the process?


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 3:38pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by GML

To answer the original question: A's response should be to try to keep clear of B (since she is windward boat) and to try to avoid contact with the committee boat (since it is a mark). If she can do both those things then no issue. If she cannot then she should protest B.

Shouldn't it be B protesting A, if A doesn't keep clear? 

B comes from astern so has to give A, initially room to keep clear (i.e space for her transom to swing around as she heads up). 

The OP says the leeward boat got her overlaps 3/4 of a boat length to leeward, which I'd say was plenty of room. 

Past that initial moment A should really maintain a gap to windward so that if B luff aggressively (i.e. go head to wind) then they are out of reach. 



OP scenario was that B changes course to windward (luffs) A into the committee vessel.

I agree that this doesn't look like a rule 15 situation, but it certainly is a rule 16.

If a does her best to keep clear of B, but is unable to do so [without touching the committee vessel], then she is being denied room to keep clear, and sailing within the room to which she is entitled and exonerated if she fails to keep clear (rule 21).  That would be A's protest.

B could certainly protest if she thought that A could have kept clear.

Yes agree rule 16 applies, but if there is 3/4 of a boat length between them, then even if B headed up to head to wind i'd still think that would give A room to keep clear.

A doesn't have mark room as there isn't any, so if they are luffed in to the CB by B, or don't keep clear of B because they are avoiding the CB then surely A is at fault?

Isn't this why you always approach the CB on lay, so you can't be squeezed out.  And also why it is dangerous to sit to port of the CB in a left to right current as boats to leeward will drift up on you? 

I'm thinking of this where boat are racked up for a start almost stationary. Maybe the OP means the two boats are reaching toward the CB with a gap the leeward boat closes at the last second? I think that goes back to rule 16 and will depend on how late the luff was. If I was B I'd be telling A they had no room rights and sailing a course that left no room.

What do you think about the first couple of seconds of this video?
[TUBE]https://youtu.be/-Ebz6K6P1Z0[/TUBE]



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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 7:30pm
Possibly too aggressive, but it's certainly happened to me and I suspect I have done it, too, certainly have when no committee boat is there. The leeward boat didn't even go above close-hauled as far as I could see.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by Henmch

Thank you for your responses to my original question which confirm my understanding.

If it was possible for the Windward boat A to keep clear of B by accelerating and crossing the line early even if there was for example a flag U flying could the leeward boat argue that this was boat As correct action to take to respond to leeward boat Bs luff even though boat A would be disqualified in the process?

In that same article I posted Mark mentions a situation where A + B are in the middle of the line with no boats around them. A is stationary and going sideways into B. He then goes on to say A should sheet sails in to prevent him slipping sideways into B even if that means A crosses the start line.

Obviously if its a U flag situation A isn't going to do that and will probably opt for the penalty turns instead ruining the start for B




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 May 19 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Obviously if its a U flag situation A isn't going to do that and will probably opt for the penalty turns instead ruining the start for B

RRS 44.1b
if the boat ... gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

So if you try and dodge being over the line by breaking a rule you're going to score letters anyway.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Yes agree rule 16 applies, but if there is 3/4 of a boat length between them, then even if B headed up to head to wind i'd still think that would give A room to keep clear.

OK, it would be difficult for B to close a gap of 3/4 boat length in a F2.  Whether she did or not  would be up to the protest committee to find in terms of speeds, distances, time and contact.

A doesn't have mark room as there isn't any, so if they are luffed in to the CB by B, or don't keep clear of B because they are avoiding the CB then surely A is at fault?

No.  If B is 3/4 BL to leeward of the CV, there's plenty of room there for A, unless and until B changes course.

Once B changes course she is bound by rule 16 to give A room to keep clear and if she sandwiches A between herself and the CV, she's breaking rule 16.

... If I was B I'd be telling A they had no room rights and sailing a course that left no room.

B is good if she steadies on course while there is still space for A to bale out, if, however, B changes course once A has nowhere to go, B is breaking rule 16.

What do you think about the first couple of seconds of this video?

Doing the best I can with all the usual palaver about problems with video

@1 (W)hite looks like she is heading 1 to 2 BL to leeward of the CV

@1.5 W goes tiller down, sheet in, so she must be coming up, but still seems to be aiming clear below the CV and maybe 1BL behind the CV transom.

@2 W comes up, still showing daylight between her and the CV, (B)lack comes into view substantially overlapped on W.

@3 W still looks like she is aft of the transom of the CV so maybe B could have backed off and tacked out

@4 to @6 B accelerates into the gap

@7 contact between W and B.

Can't see whether there was contact between B and the CV, or how much space there was or was not between B and the CV.

Doesn't look like W comes up at all between @2 and @7.

W must have thought that she didn't break rule 16 because she continues racing.

B must have thought that she may have broken rule 11/14 without exoneration because she takes turns.



Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 3:21pm
I think @2 seconds I'd headed up and we're both still clear behind the CV and B could have tacked out. But, with this thread in mind and it's not so clear cut, probably I was 1-2 seconds late on my trigger which makes it closer on whether I gave them time to react.  

Black would have stood more chance of tacking out if they hadn't got their pole out 2 foot! 

We're good mates and even as he was sliding in he was apologising, then did turns. 

You rack up on the start line on starboard and below the lay for the committee... you think you have all the rights. But then you change course on the gun and that lays you open to 'room to keep clear' 15/16. Similar to a port taker claiming you headed up and they could no longer cross you at the gun. 

Had we not been next to the CV would it be different? If someone reached down on you like that mid line and you headed up you'd never lose protest. So is it that you need to only to give them room between yourself and them for them to keep clear, but also room between them and another object (in this case the CB)? 


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 3:38pm
I am sure the protest committee would also agree that he could have also let his sails out and stopped, which would have avoided a collision. 

If you have your sails in and end up on top of a boat to leeward you are always going to struggle to claim you were in the right.  


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 May 19 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by mozzy

I think @2 seconds I'd headed up and we're both still clear behind the CV and B could have tacked out. But, with this thread in mind and it's not so clear cut, probably I was 1-2 seconds late on my trigger which makes it closer on whether I gave them time to react.  

Black would have stood more chance of tacking out if they hadn't got their pole out 2 foot! 

We're good mates and even as he was sliding in he was apologising, then did turns. 

You rack up on the start line on starboard and below the lay for the committee... you think you have all the rights. But then you change course on the gun and that lays you open to 'room to keep clear' 15/16. Similar to a port taker claiming you headed up and they could no longer cross you at the gun. 

So you were a little late pulling the trigger, but you made it in time.
 

Originally posted by mozzy

Had we not been next to the CV would it be different? If someone reached down on you like that mid line and you headed up you'd never lose protest. So is it that you need to only to give them room between yourself and them for them to keep clear, but also room between them and another object (in this case the CB)? 

Yes, being close to the CV (or any other object) makes a difference.

In clear water, a leeward boat luffing and  failing to give room to a windward boat to keep clear will be all about the rate of turn.

Once there is an object to windward constraining where the windward boat can go, failure to give room to keep clear arises from the leeward boat coming up and reducing the space between herself and the object to windward so that the windward boat cannot fit through it.

This looks a bit like rule 19, but it's different:  while rule 19 applies (when it applies) to a leeward boat changing course it also applies to a leeward boat  sailing a straight course, rule 16 applies only to a boat changing course, and in particular applies at starting marks, and windward give way racing boats when rule 19 does not


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 23 May 19 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Henmch

If it was possible for the Windward boat A to keep clear of B by accelerating and crossing the line early even if there was for example a flag U flying could the leeward boat argue that this was boat As correct action to take to respond to leeward boat Bs luff even though boat A would be disqualified in the process?
If it was possible for A, by a seamanlike action, which would include sheeting in and advancing, to keep clear of B, then A has room to keep clear and B does not break rule 16.

But, depending on the exact relative positions of the boats and the conditions, it might be difficult for B to persuade a protest committee that it was indeed possible for A to accelerate enough to keep clear.

Referring to a U Flag start, perhaps you were thinking that room included space to comply with the rules, namely rule 30.3 U Flag Rule.  The definition of room only includes space to comply with a rule of Part 2 When Boats Meet and rule 31.  Room does not include room to comply with rule 30.3 and a right of way boat changing course is quite at liberty to push a give-way boat across the starting line.

As others have said, A doesn't have the option of not responding and taking a rule 44 penalty in preference to going over the line early.  In Match Racing that would be a double penalty on A.


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 May 19 at 8:08am
@Mozzy - my initial thought when I looked at the video was that whilst you are in the right I was just looking at how much you lost to the rest of the fleet who was sailing away from both of you. Its easy from my office seat to say so but I wonder if a smaller luff without contact would have been better as it would have been enough to make black slow and freak out (he knew he was in the wrong!) and you would have lost out less to the rest of the fleet. If you were racing black for series position so you just wanted to be ahead of them overall in the race then I would have done the same but if I cared about my overall position in the fleet I might have been less aggressive on balance. I realise that is more a strategic POV rather than a rules one but wondered what you thought as well with hindsight?

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H2 #115


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 May 19 at 12:21pm
For some context, the tide was going left to right. This is probably why black was waiting for a gap to show but because of the tide it never did. Then the wind was also in right shift which exacerbated the situation. 

I reckon we lost a length on the late trigger (@0-1sec), regardless of the boat to windward. I reckon we lost another boat length just from them being there on our wind (between 2-5 sec). 

Then I reckon we lost a third boat length by holding high (@5-6sec), but this was a conscious decision as we were in the right shift and I didn't want sail low closing my lane then have to tack out immediately on to header. Instead I lost a little distance forwards but held height and the lane by squeezing aggressively high. 

If the wind was average or left, then I think you'd be correct, better to get bow forward and over the line then tack out on the lifted tack before you feel the effects of the dirty lane. 

There's quite a lot cut from the beat but 1634 basically rolls the two boats to leeward (337 & 1391).  1391 tacks out first when they get rolled by 337 and duck us. 1634 rolls 337 next, but 337 hold on to the lift in his dirty. All this time we've drawn about level with 337. For some reason 1634 then tacked out before the header came, maybe to loosely cover 1391? 

1634 comes back from the right with 1391 and they've lost out to us & 337. 1391 passes clear behind us and continues over left with 337 who tacks back left. 1634 tacks on our leebow. So, I think pinching up high was the right call to preserve our lane, even at the expense of a boat length in that moment... 1634 then tacks and ducks us as we boldy march on well past the starboard layline with the tide still going strongly left to right!  337 leads and 1634 is second. 

Breeze fills in on the left downwind and 1391 is first to gybe in to it. We should have gybed on top of 1634 when they went. Anyway, by the leeward mark 1391 were leading, 1634 second, us third and 337 4th. 

Positions close up on the next beat and we squeeze past 1634 with a well judged lay in to the windward mark.  Positions remain the same, except 1634's rudder falls off gybing in to the leeward mark and they retire. 

So, in summary, I regret not triggering soon enough, I regret going over the layline and I regret not being the first to gybe on the first run. But, I think coming up high to preserve the lane over getting bow forward was the right call as those who went out right early lost out.   

Twas good racing... and the HISC regatta is back on this weekend, forecast looks super again! 


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RS800 1144


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 May 19 at 3:38pm
Very interesting and useful - thanks!

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H2 #115



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