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How much room when rounding clear ahead?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13642
Printed Date: 19 Jun 21 at 10:06am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: How much room when rounding clear ahead?
Posted By: jcooper
Subject: How much room when rounding clear ahead?
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 6:13am
< ="WebKit-mso-list-quirks-style">

At the weekend, approaching a leeward mark ,I broke an overlap before entering the zone, and then did a classic “wide in, close out” rounding.

 

The boat behind threatened to protest because I had “taken to much room”, which got me thinking about what limits the amount of room and course a boat clear ahead can take.

 

18.2b  allows the boat clear ahead mark room and the definition of mark room allows:

·      room to sail to the mark

·      room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course.

 

As the mark room definition refers to the room definition, it seems that the boat clear ahead is entitled to room to round the mark “manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way”

 

So I conclude the boat clear ahead is entitled to make a reasonable wide in, close out rounding, but not go excessively wide to hinder the boat behind.   

 

Is my understanding correct?




Replies:
Posted By: jcooper
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 6:20am
RE-POSTED AS ORGINAL DIDN'T FORMAT CORRECTLY.

< ="WebKit-mso-list-quirks-style">

At the weekend, approaching a leeward mark I broke an overlap before entering the zone, and then did a classic “wide in, close out” rounding.

 

The boat behind threatened to protest because I had “taken to much room”, which got me thinking about what limits the amount of room and course a boat clear ahead can take.

 

18.2b  allows the boat clear ahead mark room and the definition of mark room allows  "room to sail to the mark" and  "room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course."

 

As the  mark room definition refers to the room definition, it seems that the boat clear ahead is entitled to room to round the mark “manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way”

 

So I believe the boat clear ahead is entitled to make a reasonable wide in, close out rounding, but not go excessively wide to hinder the boat behind.   

 


Is my understanding correct?



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:51am

Being entitled to mark-room does not oblige a boat to sail only within that mark-room,  You don't break rule 18.2 by taking more mark-room than you are entitled to.

What a mark-room entitled boat sailing outside the mark-room to which she is entitled, can get penalised for is breaking a right of way rule (rules 10 to 13), if she is the give-way boat, or rules 15 or 16 (room to keep clear rules) if she is the right of way boat.

US Sailing Appeal 20 explains that a mark-room entitled boat that is required to keep clear is NOT entitled to go in wide out close (tactical rounding) and is only entitled to room to sail directly to the mark and round it (seamanlike).

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/931" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/931

That is, 'seamanlike' is not 'fastest'.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 8:18am
But if the boat is clear behind, surely she isn't a right of way boat, so the leading boat can sail where she would in the absence of the other boat?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 9:39am
Interesting to see that that case is from 1968 but is still considered relevant today.

I'd agree with Rupert that it doesn't apply in this case as the complaining boat was clear astern and thus not a RoW boat.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 11:11am
US Sailing Appeal 20 is the seminal case that introduces the 'tactical rounding' vs 'seamanlike rounding' language.

Why should it not be 'relevant today'? Like all Cases and Appeals it is reviewed and updated with every cycle of rule changes.


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:21pm
Why is in wide out close seen as a tactical manoeuvre?

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Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.


Posted By: jcooper
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 7:52pm
Further to Riv's question, does a non-tactical rounding allow a course which goes wide enough to allow exit close enough to the make to prevent the boat behind nipping through the gap?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Jul 20 at 11:11pm
Read the Appeal, guys.

'tactically desirable' is used in the sense of 'to finish as quickly as possible', not in the sense of inter-boat tactics.

A boat entitled to mark-room is always entitled to close the door: that's what rule 21 exoneration for breaking rules 15 and 16 does.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Jul 20 at 7:10am
Reading the appeal, it is exactly as I'd expect it to be. But it isn't the situation the OP originally states.

As for nipping in the gap, I'd think that if rounding closer, you have a choice. Keep the speed and leave a gap, or slam the door and accept that the loss of speed is worth keeping the outside boat to leeward.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 31 Jul 20 at 8:24am

Rupert,

Your'e quite right.  The OP scenario is, if you will, the converse of the situation discussed in Appeal 20.

The boat required to give mark-room, in the OP scenario is, and is likely to remain throughout, the give way boat, and as you said before has absolutely nothing to complain of.

As to 'nipping in'  https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1064?page=7" rel="nofollow - Case 63  is the 'room given, room taken' case.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Jul 20 at 9:08am
Good to see it ties in with what I've been doing for 45 years!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686



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