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Room for an obstruction

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13683
Printed Date: 19 Jun 21 at 10:10am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Room for an obstruction
Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Subject: Room for an obstruction
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 5:52am
Hi,
Was hoping for some extra input into the following.
We had a great debate about it after sailing but did not seem to find an answer well one thag made sense.. As it stand the solo is wrong.. What do you think?

Two boats a solo and laser sailing up to a windward mark.
There is an obstruction in the way in this case a pontoon.

Solo calls for room to tack.. Here's no reply so tacks and then there is a collision (no damage or injury) on the back corner of the laser.

Laser is saying. Solo did not give room and opertunity - solo. Said I called waited no reply and needed to tack
I said that there has to be some atcipation as both boats know there pontoon is there.




Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 6:35am
Start by looking at rule 20.

I can't see any 'room and opportunity' there.

What is the time requirement in rule 20.2(a)?

What is the time condition in the first clause of rule 20.2(c)?

What is the time condition in the second clause of rule 20.2(c)?

By the way, what tack were boats on to start with?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 7:04am
Will do thank you

And startboard


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 7:13am
Sorry brass.


"I can't see any 'room and opportunity' there"

Do you mean as it does not state it there. It does not need to happen... Or solo did not give?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 7:45am
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada


"I can't see any 'room and opportunity' there"

Do you mean as it does not state it there. It does not need to happen... Or solo did not give?


I think you'll get the drift once you look at the rule (and links to on-line versions are in the Rules Resources post at the top of this forum).

If something doesn't appear in the relevant rule, why would anyone think they were entitled to it?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 7:47am
OK, so if both boats started out close hauled on starboard, then the Solo is going to be required to keep clear from the time she passes head to wind until and after the point of contact.


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 7:47am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada


"I can't see any 'room and opportunity' there"

Do you mean as it does not state it there. It does not need to happen... Or solo did not give?


I think you'll get the drift once you look at the rule (and links to on-line versions are in the Rules Resources post at the top of this forum).

If something doesn't appear in the relevant rule, why would anyone think they were entitled to it?

haha thanks, been trying to get my head around is since last night.. will give it a look.. many thanks again. 


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Brass

OK, so if both boats started out close hauled on starboard, then the Solo is going to be required to keep clear from the time she passes head to wind until and after the point of contact.

What about 20.2(c)? Surely the hailed boat (Laser) has to respond? The implication above is that time was given and no response was forthcoming. Was there room for the Solo to tack and keep clear?


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Brass

OK, so if both boats started out close hauled on starboard, then the Solo is going to be required to keep clear from the time she passes head to wind until and after the point of contact.


OK, so when tacking for an onstruction the whole tacking rule still applies? But room and opportunity does not..
Intresting


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:22am
Originally posted by PeterG


Originally posted by Brass

OK, so if both boats started out close hauled on starboard, then the Solo is going to be required to keep clear from the time she passes head to wind until and after the point of contact.

What about 20.2(c)? Surely the hailed boat (Laser) has to respond? The implication above is that time was given and no response was forthcoming.


That's right.

So which boats broke what rules?

Originally posted by PeterG

Was there room for the Solo to tack and keep clear?


What if there wasn't?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:30am
A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as
possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then
giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.

Does this part not get rid of the While tacking rule?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by PeterG


Originally posted by Brass

OK, so if both boats started out close hauled on starboard, then the Solo is going to be required to keep clear from the time she passes head to wind until and after the point of contact.

What about 20.2(c)? Surely the hailed boat (Laser) has to respond? The implication above is that time was given and no response was forthcoming.


That's right.

So which boats broke what rules?

Originally posted by PeterG

Was there room for the Solo to tack and keep clear?





This is partly why the room and opportunity popped up..
What if there wasn't?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

OK, so when tacking for an onstruction the whole tacking rule still applies? But room and opportunity does not..
Intresting


Nothing 'switches off' the Part 2 Section A Right of Way rules (rules 10 to 13).

The closest you can get is that a boat that fails to keep clear may be exonerated if she is sailing within that room or mark-room to which she is entitled (rule 21), or is compelled to not keep clear by another boat breaking a rule (rule 64.1(a)).

So a good place to start in solving a rules problem, is to identify who has right of way, and whether a right of way rule has been broken.

Then you can look at whether other rules have been broken.

Then consider exoneration.

And not one of the rules mentions 'room and opportunity'.


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:40am
Ahhh englighting
Thank you


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:48am
So

Which boats broke what rules?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:48am
Dunno yet.
Need to do what you suggest.. When I'm at a computer 😂😂🖥️🖥️💻


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 11:39am
So two boat on same tack 
Rules 11, In play.. not broke 
Rules 20.. Kicks in.. 20.1 there was a hail. not broke
20.2 - was there a response... nothing heard.. you tack... or tacking.... Broke - laser wrong.
collision happened while tacking... so rule 13.. had so Solo completed tack at point of collision? (unsure) if not then solo wrong. if yes, Was laser tacking... if yes. laser in wrong as did not keep clear?
it both had complete tack.. who was to leeward then rule 11 back into play.... 

What do you think?



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 12:11pm
So

Solo WAS entitled to hail, hailed, gave the Laser time to respond: Solo complied with rule 20.

Laser did not respond by either tacking or hailing 'you tack': Laser broke rule 20.2(c).

OP did not mention Laser tacking, so lets assume that Laser did not tack, remained on Starboard. There was contact either just before or just after the Solo reached her close hauled course on Port: Solo broke either rule 13 or rule 10.

Was the Laser entitled to room? if so under what rule?

Was the Solo entitled to room? if so under what rule?


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 12:15pm
Similar situation the other day ... two boats sailing to windward on starboard with a couple of boat lengths separation, leeward calls "room" as a precursor to tacking then completes tack onto port at which point starboard tack boat calls him back onto port.

If the windward boat had responded by saying "you tack" does the windward boat give away the right to call the leeward boat back onto starboard?

How close does a hailed boat have to be to be obligated to respond?

Does a boat that does not need to respond have to either hail or manoeuvre even if the hail is opportunistic and unnecessary?


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 12:48pm
Sorry, missed that part.. 

Solo Hailed... no reply from laser... tacked.. laser tacked collision... 

I dont see any entitlement to room? other than laser has to reply and then act... be that sail on or tack?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 12:50pm
just to be clear.. 

Two boats a solo and laser sailing up to a windward mark.
There is an obstruction in the way in this case a pontoon.

Solo calls for room to tack.. Here's no reply so tacks and then there is a collision (no damage or injury) on the back corner of the laser who is tacking.

Laser is saying. Solo did not give room and opertunity - solo. Said I called waited no reply and needed to tack
I said that there has to be some atcipation as both boats know there pontoon is there.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:33pm
As so often happens as the details come out it gets messier. Never mind, we can sort it out.

Did the Laser tack as soon as possible after the hail? If so she has complied with her rule 20.2(c) obligation, without needing to say a word.

Leaving aside the 'room and opportunity' gibberish is Laser saying "I tacked as soon as I reasonably could, but Solo slammed into her tack without giving me enough time to respond"?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:42pm
Yes it very interesting, thank you for your time with it. 

Laser did say they tacked asap after hail... 
Solo did not slam in a tack.. solo waited for response. and heard not so tack..  no would where the impact on the boat now become relevant? as this i do not know..


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 1:52pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Similar situation the other day ... two boats sailing to windward on starboard with a couple of boat lengths separation, leeward calls "room" as a precursor to tacking then completes tack onto port at which point starboard tack boat calls him back onto port.

So S did not tack and did not hail 'you tack'. S broke rule 20.2(c).
Originally posted by davidyacht


If the windward boat had responded by saying "you tack" does the windward boat give away the right to call the leeward boat back onto starboard?

Absloutely not. See https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/725" rel="nofollow - Case 101
Originally posted by davidyacht

How close does a hailed boat have to be to be obligated to respond?

Within hail?
Originally posted by davidyacht


Does a boat that does not need to respond have to either hail or manoeuvre even if the hail is opportunistic and unnecessary?

If she hears the hail she must respond (rule 20.2(b)).

IF she thinks she is far enough away that she need do nothing, her response is to hail 'you tack' immediately.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Yes it very interesting, thank you for your time with it. Laser did say they tacked asap after hail... Solo did not slam in a tack.. solo waited for response. and heard not so tack..  no would where the impact on the boat now become relevant? as this i do not know..


If Laser tacked as soon as possible after the hail, she has complied with her obligation under rule 20.2(c), and that's the end of rule 20, and now we're back to pure right of way.

So contact occurred after both boats had passed head to wind from starboard onto port.

If neither had reached her close hauled course, then Solo will be on Laser's port side and is required to keep clear (rule 13 last sentence).

If Solo has reached her close hauled course and Laser has not, then Laser is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If Solo has not reached her close hauled course and Laser has, then Solo is required to keep clear (rule 13 first sentence).

If both have reached close hauled, then I'm guessing contact was Solo's bow to Lasers port transom corner, in which case Solo was overlapped to windward on same tack as Laser, and required to keep clear.



Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:08pm
Boom. thank you. all very simple really.. hahah thank you 


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 2:42pm
Thanks Brass for pointing to 101, I tried to find an appeal case but couldn't find an appropriate one

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 24 Sep 20 at 10:01pm
Duncan's original query revolved around Solo giving 'time to respond' (rule 20.2(a), and Laser tacking 'as soon as possible' (rule 20.2(c)).

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/675?page=6" rel="nofollow - Case 54 puts it very neatly

When the boats are clearly approaching an obstruction at which A will need room to tack, B must be alert to the situation and anticipate a hail from A. Anticipation is necessary because rule 20.2(c) requires B to respond either by immediately replying ‘You tack’ or by tacking as soon as possible. If B does not immediately hail ‘You tack’, A must give B the time required for a competent, but not expert, crew to prepare for and execute her tack in a seamanlike manner as soon as possible in the prevailing conditions.


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:25am
Thank you Brass,  this is just what i needed. 
one question which will come back when we have another chat about this, is... what if laser says he did tack straight away ( but did not hail tacking, we know that) and there was impact... 

would the laser be in the wrong for not giving enough room? breaking rule 20? 


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:34am
I think this just answered my above question dont you 

Question 3
What should A do if B does not respond to her hail?
Answer 3
Although the rule only requires one hail, if time permits it is prudent for A to repeat her hail. The lack of a response from B does not mean that A must hold her course. If needed, A should avoid the obstruction in the safest manner, which may include luffing up to head to wind or gybing. A can then protest if B has not responded as required by rule 20.2(


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 7:42am
If Laser chooses to tack, and does so as soon as possible, she doesn't need to say a word. It's up to Solo to keep her wits about her and know what's going on.

If Laser tacks as soon as possible that completely discharges her obligation under rule 20.2(c). She has no obligation under rule 20.2 to give Solo any room.

Only if Laser responds by hailing 'you tack' is she then required to give Solo room to tack and avoid her.

So, once Laser tacks, rule 20 is over and done with and we are looking at a brand new incident: both boats tacking, then contact, which is going to depend on rules 11, 12 or 13 and rule 15.

And if your question was What should Solo do if Laser does not respond to her hail?, then Case 54 Answer 3 is the answer.


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 8:01am
very good.. 

one thought, is how would you find if the did laser tack as soon as possible?
or 
Did solo Hail soon enough 
as this was also something we spoke about on the night?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 25 Sep 20 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

how would you find if the did laser tack as soon as possible?


Gather and weigh the evidence.

It may help if you reframe 'Did Laser tack as soon as possible' (or 'immeidately' or 'promptly' if you come across them) as 'Did Laser tack without unreasonable delay'. You can then further decompose this into:
  • Did Laser tack immediately/without any delay?

  • If there was delay, how long was the delay?

  • What were the reasons for the delay

  • Were the reasons 'reasonable'?
.

Ask Laser what he or she did when she heard the hail?

Ask Laser when she tacked/how long after the hail she tacked?

Remember Solo has her back to the action and is probably concentrating on the approaching obstruction and handling her boat.

Ask Solo what she was doing immediately after she hailed?

Ask Solo whether she saw Laser begin to tack?

Ask Solo when/how long after the hail she saw the Laser was tacking.

Ask similar questions of any witnesses.

Assume everybody is telling the truth unless and until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Did solo Hail soon enough 


Case 54 Answer 1 tells us what is the soonest that Solo is entitled to hail.

Answer 2, last sentence tells us how much time Solo must allow Laser to respond.

After that, any lateness in Solo's hail is going to be Solo's problem.



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