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Rounding a windward Mark to Starboard

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13686
Printed Date: 19 Jun 21 at 10:12am
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Topic: Rounding a windward Mark to Starboard
Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Subject: Rounding a windward Mark to Starboard
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 7:51am
Ok, struggling to see anything on this, was hoping for some help. 

so rounding a windward mark to starboard...

boat A is on Port, within 1 boat length of the mark, and it also 1 boat length above the mark layline so there is room for starboard boats to tack around the mark.

boat b is on  Starboard... coming into the the mark... 

If it was me id tack into the gap left by boat a and get on with my race... 

but let say that i did not tack and i carried on sailing to make boat a tack . once she tacks i then tack and go around the mark... 

can i do this? 

Or 

do i have to sail my proper course and tack around the mark.....??



Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 9:31am
Mate, have you opened your rulebook yet?

Take a look at rule 18.1

Does rule 18 apply in the situation you describe?

Search for 'proper course'

Do any of the rules that contain the phrase 'proper course' place an obligation on a boat on a beat to windward about to round a mark?


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 9:52am
Lol thanks for that.

I dknt think rules 18 applies.. 18.1a



Yer for me.. Boat B is not sailing her proper course... But in this situation I've been told "well my proper course is to sail past x to get into that gust..

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

These are all things that have happened and casued great debate and arguments which I'm trying to get a better knowledge of so we can help educate the club



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

These are all things that have happened and casued great debate and arguments which I'm trying to get a better knowledge of so we can help educate the club

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Lol thanks for that.

OK, I'm not trying to make a dick of myself. I'm trying to help you get on top of the relevant rules and develop some methods for tackling rules problems.

If you are going to discuss the rules, do it with the rules book open in front of you. Don't rely on what somebody thinks the rules say, or worse still what somebody thinks the rules mean: look at the words in the rules.

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

I dknt think rules 18 applies.. 18.1a

Good start. Actually it's rule 18.1(b), because P, above the layline is not on a beat to windward, but S needs to tack.

People remember this as "On opposite tacks at a windward mark: take the mark away."

Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Yer for me.. Boat B is not sailing her proper course... But in this situation I've been told "well my proper course is to sail past x to get into that gust..

Proper Course
A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

OK, you have found the definition of 'proper course'

And you you have now found one rule that uses the phrase 'proper course' rule 18.1(b) which doesn't impose any obligations about proper course.

Using the search function find and list the other rules that use the phrase 'proper course'.

Look, and tell us if any of those rules apply to a boat sailing close hauled to a windward mark?



Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 10:34am
Thank you. I appreciate your hell thanks will give it a look. And report back 👍👍


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Thank you. I appreciate your hell thanks will give it a look. And report back 👍👍

Freudian slip there Wink following this with interest.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 12:38pm
Ooops 🤦🏻‍♂️


Join in.. The more the merrier..


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 2:02pm
OK Duncan, four little rules still to find.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 4:51pm
I'll leave you to it, I think I have it but I won't spoil your fun Wink



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 6:28pm
Yer, yer

OK.

So rules
17..ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
18.1b.
between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,

18.2c (2) if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to
mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her
proper course while they remain overlapped.

18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to
sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from
the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at
a gate mark.

24.2
If reasonably possible, a boat shall not interfere with a boat that is

taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 22.1.
However, after the starting signal this rule does not apply when the
boat is sailing her proper course.


Think that's them??


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 6:49pm
So other then the definition there is not much a out sailing around the course. And 18.1a
Does point towards that is OK to do it?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 7:39pm
That's how I had it, if S tacks under P he'll be vulnerable to S rolling over him on the reach so by forcing P to double tack he gains a little ground.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 11:05pm
Yes.

Looking at each of the rules:

None of the rule 18 rules apply because rule 18 does not apply, by rule 18.1(b).

Rule 17 does not apply because boats are on opposite tacks.

Rule 24 does not apply because no boat is taking a penalty, sailing on another leg or subject to rule 21.

So no way does proper course apply in that scenario.

https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/cases/1015" rel="nofollow - Case 9 sets this scenario out.

When a starboard-tack boat chooses to sail past a windward mark, a port-tack boat must keep clear. There is no rule that requires a boat to sail a proper course.

Sam and others, over to you for the tactics, but I do remember that Stuart Walker said "Cross 'em when you can".


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 27 Sep 20 at 11:23pm
It makes sense to me if you can end up ahead and to windward, however briefly. The only time being to leeward pays is if you have a solid lee bow upwind and, even when you have, it takes a few lengths to consolidate an advantage.

If I was P here I'd force S to stand on and duck his stern, if you're a length to windward of the layline you have room to do so. A cute helm in S would slow down to prevent you from doing so though...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 5:09am
Thank you for clearing all that up. Very interesting.

And also thank you for your time and patience

🤙👍👍


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 6:21am
It's a pleasure.

Hopefully you can encourage your friends at the club to take a look at the current rulebook <g>.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 11:14am
If the port tack boat luffs and slows, chances are that the starboard boat will tack into the gap, allowing port to bear away again, so losing less ground than having to put a double tack in. Especially likely if starboard is defending from behind, too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Brass

It's a pleasure.

Hopefully you can encourage your friends at the club to take a look at the current rulebook <g>.


Hahaahha, that's is the plan..


Posted By: Nacnud_smada
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Rupert

If the port tack boat luffs and slows, chances are that the starboard boat will tack into the gap, allowing port to bear away again, so losing less ground than having to put a double tack in. Especially likely if starboard is defending from behind, too.



What will happen/has happened is the startboard tack boat always carries on sailing to make the port tack boat tack away.. As soon as this happens starboard then tacks back.. Regardless of port luffing.. Etc


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 1:08pm
As Port, on or above the layline you are in a strong position. If you can't cross S then you have two options, tack or duck. if you hail for Starboard to hold their course* and duck their stern, by the time they've tacked, a couple of lengths past the layline, you'll have that strong lee bow I mentioned** above. S has two options, either slow down so you have to tack or to tack into your lee bow. 

* No hail is necessary but it clarifies your intentions and reminds them of their obligations under Rule 16.

** And be RoW boat. It's not infallible though, if they can tack fast enough to avoid the lee bow and roll you on the next leg. 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Sep 20 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Originally posted by Rupert

If the port tack boat luffs and slows, chances are that the starboard boat will tack into the gap, allowing port to bear away again, so losing less ground than having to put a double tack in. Especially likely if starboard is defending from behind, too.



What will happen/has happened is the startboard tack boat always carries on sailing to make the port tack boat tack away.. As soon as this happens starboard then tacks back.. Regardless of port luffing.. Etc


Only if Starboard has no other threats, or is blind to them. Or just enjoys annoying people. Actually, every situation is different, and port will have just a few seconds to judge what starboard is likely to do.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Nacnud_smada

Originally posted by Rupert

If the port tack boat luffs and slows, chances are that the starboard boat will tack into the gap, allowing port to bear away again, so losing less ground than having to put a double tack in. Especially likely if starboard is defending from behind, too.



What will happen/has happened is the startboard tack boat always carries on sailing to make the port tack boat tack away.. As soon as this happens starboard then tacks back.. Regardless of port luffing.. Etc

Tacktics 101 there, gains you an advantage if you are S and P cannot easily duck you and still make the mark.

S cannot tack in front of P though as she may fall foul of rule 16 (Changing Course) and rule 13 (While Tacking). 

The rules are a minefield and this is why upwind Stb mark roundings are usually best avoided unless you are team racing.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by jeffers

The rules are a minefield


I don't agree with this. The rules are the rules: they create the game.

Originally posted by jeffers

and this is why upwind Stb mark roundings are usually best avoided unless you are team racing


Elvstrom didn't agree with this. Paul Elvstrom has always been a strong opponent of port rounding courses (Elvstrom Explains,Explanatory (Red) Section Rule 89.2)

The disadvantage of port rounding is that a boat approaching on port tack, even though she may really be leading ... may not be able to round the mark and can drop many places. Also the tendency is to use only the starboard side of the course.

With starboard rounding, a boat can always get round the mark by standing on a few lengths, but there are usually more protest situations.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers

The rules are a minefield


I don't agree with this. The rules are the rules: they create the game.


For those with little knowledge just getting into racing they are. Most of them are still working on getting the boat round a course rather than who is right or wrong. There are a lot of pitfalls which is why those who are more versed in the rules should seek to help educate rather than berate.

Out on the open circuit though you should know the rules much better (but it is surprising how many don't).

Originally posted by Brass



Originally posted by jeffers

and this is why upwind Stb mark roundings are usually best avoided unless you are team racing
 

Elvstrom didn't agree with this. Paul Elvstrom has always been a strong opponent of port rounding courses (Elvstrom Explains,Explanatory (Red) Section Rule 89.2) 

The disadvantage of port rounding is that a boat approaching on port tack, even though she may really be leading ... may not be able to round the mark and can drop many places. Also the tendency is to use only the starboard side of the course. 

With starboard rounding, a boat can always get round the mark by standing on a few lengths, but there are usually more protest situations.

In club situations, given my caveat above, they create far more problems but are sometimes unavoidable. My home club has Stb windward mark roundings usually at the end of the second beat and due to a limited sailing area. The experienced racers usually cope fine, those less experienced tend to suffer or get confused. if there is going to be an incident it is usually there.


-------------
Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 4:43pm
When you are learning to race it is necessary to know the basic 'when boats meet' rules, 10-13, add to that the advice to stay out of the way at marks and the novice racer can get by pretty we'll. Once they get to the point of challenging for positions they should probably be making an effort to understand the basics.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 6:55pm
I tend to agree with sam on this and this tends to work well at most clubs unless there happens to be a aggressive’ shouter ‘ in the fleet which can scare a novice sailor . 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Oct 20 at 7:47pm
There's always one of those but usually the rest tell said novice to take no notice... Big smile

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



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