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Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9592
Printed Date: 21 Apr 21 at 3:11pm
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Topic: Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: Bandit Watch - A thread long overdue.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:26am
So last night in the filthy rain, overcast skys and sub 14 degree balmy summer evening we took yet another handicap pasting by that new merlin, at one point they even over took us on a reach, we fought back, established a good two minute lead and my new crew did very well in the circumstances, he's so enthusiastic, a complete newcomer to sailing and can't quite understand why we still lost by two minutes, how do you explain it to him?

I explain they are cheating b**tards who carefully selected an older boat that has been built using really modern methods and the club returns that come in are diluted by the older boats still racing so it takes while before the handicap catches up, but it is dispiriting for him nonetheless. I also explain to pay no attention, it's what happens over the water that counts and all the watching public see is us sailing stars putting the cover on our boat whilst they are still out there and that placates him a bit, I also explain in all honesty we're not really sailing ours to full handicap yet partly due to the course and partly due to our inexperience as a team since we couldn't fly our spinnaker on both reaches properly and eventually he understands and we hit the bar and run the race over again asking the Merlin Boys where they get their sombreros and ammunition belts.

But it did occur to me and I wondered just how many Bandit boats there are out there and it's always a bit of fun, over the period I've been posting here the Phantom took the brunt of criticism, yet the Blaze got away clean, the Rooster Streaker gets barely a mention and the Miracle? 1194? how did that happen?

So we definitely need a Bandit Watch thread, so it's out there, in the open, known Bandits, name and shame, who is your worse offender, I've got three on my radar, the Merlin at 1005 I haven't raced it yet but the days will dawn when my EPS at 1025 will get totally trashed by the Miracle at 1194 and got pretty worked by a Scorpion the other day, not even sure what their handicap is, but at this point I'm not fully up to speed so really can't complain.

Anyone else got any pet hates?


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Replies:
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:37am
Good plan, these darn banditos are ruining my day on occassion, in fact, every time they beat me! Thing is though, when I have the audacity to beat them, apparently it's also down to PY... all very confusing really.Wink


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:43am
No no no, the rule is this.

1)If you beat them, you did it because you're a better sailor and they're eejiots.

2)If you lose, (on handicap) they only managed it because they're bandits

3)If you actually lose over the water, it just proves the above is true.

Handicap racing mentality, it's why we love it.LOL

Think if everyone sails the same thing, then how could you mentally cope with not winning all the time? Wink


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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:50am
Now then lad, this is a serious subject. My old Solo is sailing off 1150. 1150 is this years Py for Winder type FRP boats. If you look at pictures of open races most boats are in the 3500 numbers whereas mine is 1591. Even the hull shape is altered within the rules. I never had much chance in Byte or Lightning but now it is even worse.  Lightnings are 1154 and C2 1140. Now I don't expect to beat the "boy" sailing these but I would like to come closer to the other club geriatrics. I believe I can apply to our sailing commitee for a local handicap. How do I do this?

This weekend is the Supernova Nationals and the first nationals where the new carbon Nova's will compete against old style boats......on the same PY. The "boy", Pabs from this forum and another friend are competing in old borrowed boats. It will be interesting to compare performance as the new boats are lighter and stiffer. The race starts to-day and I will be there with my binoculars on Saturday and Sunday. Llandudno by the way.


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:54am
.... feeding time again anyone ?


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:11am
Well that Solo lot should at least attempt to do what the Merlin lot have to their credit, even if they are still ten years behind..

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm - http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm

And that's really what should happen, a graph aged like that Merlin chart for all boats.

So, since he's come on for a wind up, the Blaze as an example should be alongside the Phantom at 1035 but with the old one left at whatever it was, 1046.

But then that wouldn't encourage the sale of new boats much would it?

Then again, newly designed boats might get a better share of the market...


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Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:15am
Merlin - agreed, but they are lovely to look at so it's OK.
Blaze - not raced them on handicap much - no comment.
Streakers - plenty of moustachioed mentions here  in the past - and quite rightly so.
Miracles - agreed - I've been on a 2nd pint with a Miracle landing to beat me on handicap.
Solos - seem to go well in all conditions and a newish boat with a newish rig is going to be hard to beat. Look around and they are never far enough behind
Phantoms - the PY tide is ebbing and it is really only within restricted wind bands (F2-F3) 


On the Supernova front bear in mind that all the top guys (bar one - current National champ) will be in the new MK2s - it will be more interesting looking a bit further down the fleet.


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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:23am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Well that Solo lot should at least attempt to do what the Merlin lot have to their credit, even if they are still ten years behind..

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm - http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/technical/handicaps.htm


Is a 12 year old Merlin the same as a brand new one? I know they went a bit OD with the Winder Mk iV but are 35xx boats found near the front in big fleets that often ? (Mind you I've just looked at Salcombe 3539 14/98 and 3088 (!) 16/98 so perhaps it is true). 


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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:33am
.... always along for a laugh Greame  as you know  ;-)

Anyway I can't be the only one thinking that you could soon get the EPS returns to a much more reasonable level if your club puts in a return ... and do it on your own.  Perhaps there is a new opportunity there for you - as 'specialist' rent-a-helm to bandit classes needing  that 'better' number justified !

Mike L.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:05am
To be a true bandit, a boat has to be winning right across the wind conditions, from a drift to a gale. Otherwise, it is just a boat with a strong area - like the British Moth in force 0.

It does help, of course, if 3/4 of the fleet is outclassed by the new boats, but still has plenty of returns going in. Sadly, one still has to be able to afford a new boat to be a bandit. "New boat faster than old boat shock" - I can see the newspaper headline now, along side "Bear sh*ts in woods" and "Crap sailor beaten by decent sailor in handicap race".


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:06am
Interesting - I'm allowed Crap, but not sh*t, without an asterisk!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:07am
Fireballs are a bit of a bandit around the cans in big breeze. They can carry the kite when most other stuff can't, and they haul ass too. Weapon of choice for a windy pursuit race!

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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Late starter
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:12am
Lots of issues here, most of which have been covered on this forum on a number of occasions. On a related topic though, I've noticed that at my club we're stuggling to get club level racers to continue racing, as they rock up in their 10 year old Lasers or whatever and get monstered by the guys at the front sailing bandits like new Streakers, winder Solos, epoxy Phantoms etc. Mid fleet guy then either flashes the cash and joins the bandits, or doesn't bother racing much anymore and leaves the Laser to rot in the boat park. 


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Late starter

, or doesn't bother racing much anymore and leaves the Laser to rot in the boat park. 
 
Best place for it. Trouble is they dont rot quick enough.


Posted By: Atrocity
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:31am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
Anyone else got any pet hates?

whinging


Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 12:41pm
Im going to add RS Feva... I managed to do a long distance race against many boats and came second to a 700. Maybe it was a spinnaker day, but in other races, the feva does well, in the first few races I got a 1st out of 11 Slow handicap boats. We do RTC courses too, Feva crew is new to it, just a shame its now sold, will have to blast with the 200 instead!

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Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 12:50pm
at my club we're stuggling to get club level racers to continue racing, as they rock up in their 10 year old Lasers or whatever and get monstered by the guys at the front sailing bandits like new Streakers, winder Solos, epoxy Phantoms etc. Mid fleet guy then either flashes the cash and joins the bandits, or doesn't bother racing much anymore and leaves the Laser to rot in the boat park. 
What better argument for splitting the results and having older boat racing as well as fleet racing?
Or do as the cvrda do and adjust handicaps based on the age and state of the boat.


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Atrocity

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
Anyone else got any pet hates?

whinging
 
+1


Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

 "New boat faster than old boat shock" - I can see the newspaper headline now, along side "Bear sh*ts in woods" and "Crap sailor beaten by decent sailor in handicap race".


+1


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Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.


 the Blaze as an example should be alongside the Phantom at 1035 but with the old one left at whatever it was, 1046.



Keep up at the back, the Phantom is on an EPS equalling 1025, its dropped 10 points in the last 2 years, so where would that put the Blaze?




Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 2:06pm
Phantom and EPS seem pretty even at Whitefriars, from the few times I've seen them out together, which when you consider the EPS handicap is rising and the Phantom dropping, suggests that the PY committee are maybe getting things right more than we give them credit for?



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 3:38pm
Funny I put 1025 in my original post then thought no and went back and edited it, so even more reason the Blaze is now officially a Bandido, Mike will be pleased.

I thought if we could achieve something from this and believe it or not these posts and threads do get read by folk in a position to make things happen, if they are sensible that is, which most of my posts aren't meant to be, but...

Getting back to what the Merlins did, would it not be an idea if the RYA PY list were Aged?

It might go some way toward preventing the iniquities that common sense and a more pro active club handicap committee might do. The problem for most of us moaners I suspect is that we sail at clubs that are not big enough in boths senses of the word to alter the handicap lists for local conditions, be that water type, or boat age.

I am also guessing that what commercial pressure there is going on behind the scenes and I know it happens from my commercial windsurfing days, is unlikely to be wanting anything other than the status quo, or at the very least a slow transition, precisely because it favours new build of old handicap boats to increase sales in these slack times.

So we as a body could produce a list, at the very least to give each other something to wave about in front of the race committee or whatever other organisation that might be swayed, by such and instrument.

If it were drawn up in five or ten year periods across the top and the boat and it's current handicap down one column and what the older boats should be on the right with what we think it ought to be for our particular circumstance to the left..?

Maybe I'll have a bash later tonight after a couple of beers, things are always so much clearer once I've spotted the answer at the bottom of the glassWink


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Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 3:39pm
The EPS handicap is rising 'cos ol' GRUMPHY has increased the fleet size by around 30% ClapEvil SmileClown

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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 3:59pm
You might jest but after my Thursday night performance there are three people looking for them, believing of course that it must be the boat, no way could that old t**ser win single handed..

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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 4:10pm
You might jest but after my Thursday night performance there are three people looking for them, believing of course that it must be the boat, no way could that old t**ser win single handed..

Exactly .. so when did the EPS class association make their proposal to you and what is the current rate ?   OK OK I knew we could not afford you ourselves any longer when you defected to RS.   All the rest will all be bidding for your services soon if you keep bragging (or is that really 'marketing')!  Greame we think you could forget that outstanding B&Q offer .. more satisfying and gainfull employment beckons  ....  Wink

Mike L.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 7:05pm
My entry for Bandit would either be the RS Vision, or the Bosun.
There are lots of Visions sailing, but most of them are sailed by 'Improvers', put a good helm in and they are quite quick.
Most Bosuns have poor sails, terrible equipment and sailed by beginners.
They're actually not a bad hull shape and have a lot of lwl for their PY.

It's all just noise.
The club level Laser sailors need to find some mates with similar aged Lasers, of similar skill and concentrate on racing each other. Once you've got over not being Ben A, racing against other ordinary people is actually quite good fun.


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 7:33pm
Let me make myself clear. I do not like personal handicaps.....I know I am crap and I don't need someone to tell me! Merlins have an age related handicap but they are a limited development class. But, old boats are old boats. Some classes stand the test of time very well, usually when construction methods stay the same but others  have differnt masts sails and more modern materials. Solo. Phantom, streaker etc. This may not matter at open races or Nationals where serious sailors will have the best kit anyway but us poverty stricken pensioners sailing at club level are getting a raw deal.

I also have a theory regarding GRF's enjoyment of the unloved (by many) EPS. It is just a boat....simple rig, little complication and few vices. He can just get on and sail it and that is the most fun in the end......well apart from moaning about it!


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 8:12pm
Well i was told after last weekends racing that i won all four races that my handicap on the 300 is wrong and no well done you sailed it great oh no its the boat not me so a personal handicap might be on its way for me also might have something to do with almost lapping a phantom and two contenders in one race

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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by tickler

 few vices. He can just get on and sail it 

Clap
Shouldn't all boats be like that by now?

I mean, it's only been fifty odd years, how come only the one designer has got it right?

It really doesn't appear to have any vices, you'd have to be nit picky to find them, the daggerboard, I just don't like them whoever builds them, the centre sheeting, but hey most boats have that and I'm not so sure rear sheeting is really any better.

But as far as it's dealing with the job of sailing over water, it's bow, it's rocker, it really is the best thing I've come across by a long chalk, a lovely hull shape, it cuts a beautiful path, you'd hardly know it passed.


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Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:10pm
I don't want to be pedantic but PY's are as follows:- Laser EPS 1024 +4 (moving into bandit country) Blaze 1040 -6 (moving out of bandit country). Miracle 1195, Merlin 1002 -4, Phantom 1025 -5. Could it be that the Portsmouth Yardstick is slowly trimming those Mexican moustaches! (Am I allowed to say that? If not I apologise in advance to all Mexicans.) Quoted from http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx - here . Geek


Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by rogerd

Originally posted by Atrocity

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 
Anyone else got any pet hates?

whinging
 
+1


+2Clap


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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:45pm
Some boats young fella me lad ARE like that......take my Solo. You don't like it because it is easy and slow.  The EPS is less slow and less easy. When you find yourself wanting to go faster still and you get, say a 300 then it will be considerably less easy and you may not relish the challenge. The Holy Grail of very fast and very easy is hard to achieve (as you have found out). Therefore, enthusiasim and ability, 19s 6d,  difficulty 20s, misery! Enthusiasim and ability 19s 6d, difficulty 19s happiness!!!

There are many detractors of the EPS but how many of our correspondents have personal experience? I for one like the lowers supporting the mast with a ball race....very neat.

You are blazing, no pun intended, an EPS trail Mr Fuller!


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 9:51pm
Odd that this self proclaimed early adopter seems so keen on this obsolete discontinued product. 


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:07pm
Given dinghy design trails sailboard design by about ten -fifteen years, the 300 is/was our equivalent of Division 2 hulls, round bottom minimum wetted area,  skiff hulls are the equivalent of our Raceboard Hulls, the next stage we went through which, had the V2 been lighter, it might have demonstrated, should be th next phase given your history trails ours.

Now the 300/Div 2, was a blind alley, yes they were quick, but frankly too difficult for even the experts to bother with and with a narrow range of useful performance operation, so I wouldn't bother trying to master it.

Now looking at this EPS hull, it's kind of a cross between the two, it has a parabolic rocker with a very shallow aft section, as well as an edge to edge shape, not unlike the middle bit of the 300, it's a far more sophisticated design than the 300, certainly to the eye of one who studies these things.


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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by tickler

The Holy Grail of very fast and very easy is hard to achieve


Actually it's fairly easy. Just bolt a couple of monster outboards on the back and forget about all this Bronze Ago throwback wind propulsion.



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Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by tickler

The Holy Grail of very fast and very easy is hard to achieve


Actually it's fairly easy. Just bolt a couple of monster outboards on the back and forget about all this Bronze Ago throwback wind propulsion.


Err.... he's got a point.


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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:32pm
Now youre talking....why bother at all!


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Jul 12 at 11:46pm
Regarding RS 300. I have never sailed one but I have watched many. The success of the boat seems to me that it has low wetted area and a narrow but long 'footprint'. If the boat was less wide at deck level it would need racks or a trap. It seems to be sailable because there is space to run about inside and if things do go wrong the hull lays on the wing giving time to avoid disaster. We had a Magnum 8 Moth on the familly fleet. The main part of the hull was very like a short 300 but dip a wing and bang/splash.I would have thought that the EPS was more stable but disaster comes quicker. How lucky we are to have a test pilot experimenting on our behalf.


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 12:01am
[QUOTE=Rockhopper] Well i was told after last weekends racing that i won all four races that my handicap on the 300 is wrong and no well done you sailed it great oh no its the boat not me...QUOTE]
 
Well doneClap.


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 8:05am
Andy mac Thanks
Funny on handicap for me as the week before i went out its average wind speed was 22 knots when out there it gusted up to 29 knots and i spent most of the time upside down and no mention of bandit boat of handicap problems just everyone laughing at me swimming but as i said to them all you will never learn anything sitting the race hut watching
I think some boats have a purple patch where they best perform in so my question to you all is what is your boats purple patch when it flys


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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 9:17am
on handicap the k6 is pretty much a demon in the 3-8 knot range, lighter and they stick and in the breeze anything that has racks or trapeze that can plane upwind does one. 
upon reflection i wouldnt actually say its a demon, more that it is a consistant performer throughout the wind range, whereas other boats have erratic performances curves due to the ability to plane upwind.


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Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 11:20am
Rooster 8.1's.  They outperform their handicap in light winds, but are stuffed in strong winds where all the little blokes who bought the rig purely for handicap racing in light winds on Wednesday evenings get blown to all 4 corners fo the lake.  And they still come in smiling because they know that the odd bad result in strong winds will keep their handicap nice and high so they can continue to win in the light stuff and congratulate themselves on what fantastic sailors they are.
 


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 11:52am
All PY's are a compromise.......just choose which way to go. If I could afford it I would get a Winder Solo rather than the Battleship Potemkin, practice for 20 years more and win races on 1150 when I am 86.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Rockhopper

 
I think some boats have a purple patch where they best perform in so my question to you all is what is your boats purple patch when it flys

For us in the Alto, it's more to do with the course and flying the kite as I guess it must be with most Assym kited boats, have yet to discover what the EPS Forte is condition wise other than V light and tidal, I have a strong feeling it doesn't have a truly benevolent condition on the lake, least not one they are prepared to sail in, they backed off on wednesday when it was quite breezy, not that I was particularly bothered.

Back to the course, at our place, get a short(ish) beat with a wide wing mark and the Contenders nail it, let me set the course with a nice long beat, keep the wing mark in with nice deep reaches, keep the beggars off their wires and we get a shout. It also discourages them from making me set the course, but mostly we either get a fetch fetch fetch = Lasers dominate, or a tight 1st reach and broad second which suits the Sym boats or Contenders. Down the lake it's a procession round cans pretty much won or lost on the start and first leg as far as I can see from the limited racing I've had there.

But whatever it is I love it, a crap course I love a good moan, good course and nice wind and I get the occasional win even last thursday, freezing cold, pissing with rain, orrible shape sea with not enough wind for the waves, we still came in with a glow and sense of achieving something, I just love sail racing, don't care what it is, where it is, I live for fun of it.


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Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 1:14pm
Indeed at our club if we beat against the tide anything with a trapeze or like the 300 go very well against the lasers, 2000s vareos ,200s who if its the other way beat with the tide and run against they do very well as for set courses we have a wide range of handicap boats or asymetrics which both have a different course W,L for the asymetrics and either a triangle or a square for all classes some times .I find the 300 is great against the tide in anything up ten knots after that you seem to reach a max speed upwind and no matter how hard you try it does not go much quicker without lots of effort

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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 1:16pm
As for the K6s i went to the europe open in holland this year and watched they sailed very well in all winds they were quite impressive even in the drifters

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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 14 Jul 12 at 3:29pm
theyre great fun, k6s, od and handicap racing, especially when every one else is capsizing and were blasting along.  touched 20knots a couple of times with regular 16-18knot broad reaching, but knowing the limits of your boats capabilites on handicap is one step towards winning as it requires a change of tactick.  ie if its a fireball day then i'll try and start to cover them for as long as possible or as the k6 points like a badger with a stick just sail my course until they tack off.  they soon learn though and sail around us if they can, either way it benefits me.
 
local py adjustment wise we've been modding ours, the blaze is a potential 997 (1040), fireballs are down to 973 (980), mps potential fall to 838 (860), k6 up to 909 (903), laser are up to 1088.


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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 3:35pm
5 pages of why I'll never bother entering a club handicap race again... 

PY is fine for the odd big regatta / festival sailing event, and by and large, works well to keep the nutters inland all in one place when frankly it's far too cold for any sane yachting to be taking place, although it is worth noting that SJ series do at least use PY right and locally adjust (without consistency according to some quarters, so never without the inevitable grumbling).... 

but for everyday sailboat racing PY is just crap, rarely works well and it's just another way of ruining a good day's sailing and putting people off racing their boats.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 4:28pm
Bandit Watch.

[TUBE]z1dSXipl8Hc&feature=related[/TUBE]


Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Bandit Watch.

[TUBE]z1dSXipl8Hc&feature=related[/TUBE]


the best bandit of all!!!!!!LOLClap


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 8:23pm
Had a good day of handicap racing today, though the wind for the first 2 races was terrible. Had a Phantom, an EPS, a Contender, a Wayfarer, a Laser a Solo and a Lightning all in with a shout of winning races, with 4 different winners throughout the day.
Can only have been a couple of points separating the 1st 4 at the end of the 4 race, no discards series, with 20 or more boats having taken part during the day. Wind ranged from drift to depowering and working hard. The Contender certainly liked it when he could trapeze, and suffered badly when it dropped. Otherwise, things weren't too uneven, just the faster boats planing earlier as the breeze pick up, so popping out ahead on handicap where they had been a little behind in the light.

Mostly it came down to decent helms and consistancy, as one duff result was enough to put you out of the running. No bandits in sight, in hindsight. Didn't feel that way on occasions when out there, mind, but there were swings and roundabouts.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 9:36pm
So pondmonkey, how do you propose to get all the dinghy owners in the country to race? I suppose you want them to all sell their various boats and buy into the fleet you sail.

Here's a tip, it wont happen!

In the UK now the diversity in dinghy classes is such that to try and pull it back to a few racing classes is nothing but a pipedream. Clubs have to do what they can with the boats people want to sail, and while PY isn't perfect, it enables reasonable racing to take place. Handicap systems regardless of them being measurement based or return based are never perfect, so suck it up and find a way of enjoying it.


Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 9:47pm
I don't propose anything- let's be blunt, if the RYA struggle to even get clubs to return data, never mind adjust the numbers appropriately, then we can be in absolute agreement that there's feck all I can do about it, and frankly if everyone's having such a swell time, then fair enough eat your hearts out guys.

I will simply opt out and find class racing- either locally, or back via a circuit when time allows it.


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 10:33pm
Rupert's post sounds good to me. I expect the top boats were not seperated by much on corrected time either.
 
As has been pointed out countless times in other threads, the best helms will win no matter what boat they are sailing if results can be calculated over a range of weather conditions, and provided local factors like tide do not excessively penalise the slower boats, or short inland legs the faster boats.  Several boats can be a bandit in "their" conditions. 


Posted By: johnreekie1980
Date Posted: 15 Jul 12 at 11:19pm
I have started sailing a merlin at a lake club where they run a mixture of personal handicap and boat handicap only races. This is a constant source of amusement to me. Merlin handicaps are aged on the boat however this is on wide age bands. I could be wrong but I believe this to be the case. Lets face it the last 5 plus years of winder boats are probably not that much different.


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:08am
I'm getting to like GRF more and more. Another book plug opportunity. Here is an extract on this very topic from a chapter called Inputs and Outputs:

The wise club sailor will have two critical measures of their own performance. Strangely these are nothing to do with winning. 

The first is “How well did I sail?” and the second will be a qualifier: “...in light of the pre-race effort I put in”. I emphasise the words pre-race because once the race has started there is no excuse for not putting in the same level of effort as anyone else - your all. 

Let’s talk about winning for a moment. I firmly believe winning a race should not be your goal. Winning is an outcome but not necessarily a good measure. If winning is the be-all and end-all of your participation in sailing (or in any other sport) then you have my commiserations because, frankly, you may have other psychological issues to deal with. 

Why do I say this? If winning is everything, you might choose a class with less competition, or even a club with less competition. You might blow your competitors away with a ridiculous, over-the-top budget, only sail against beginners or rock, pump and generally cheat your way around the course. Or you could just choose a boat solely for its bandit handicap rating. This is not the route to fulfilment, respect from others or even self-respect. If this all sounds like you, stick with us and hopefully we can lead you to a happier place! 

The greatest-ever dinghy sailor, Paul Elvstrøm, recognised this issue when he said “You have not won the race if, in winning, you lose the respect of your competitors.” 

I am sure we have all had days where we were delighted with our own performance – perhaps because we did not capsize on a treacherous day – even if our finishing position was not a five-minute lead over the next boat. Equally, there can be days when you do not feel you sailed as well as you could, but somehow the final placing turned out rather flattering. 

Where we need to get to, of course, is the best of both worlds: the satisfaction of a race sailed well and cleanly plus the reward of a good finishing place. Rather like spinning a coin multiple times, the longer the sequence, the more the running outcome will smooth out random factors – and you will get your just desserts. 



-------------
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:22am
6 pages and no mention of the Graduate yet, the new Rooster boats are considerably faster than the old wood ones, the PY is slowly catching up but seeing as there are only about 10 in existance it will take a long time!


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:26am
The Psychology of being a good loser, is to always have something (or someone) other than yourself to blame... This is the joy of handicap racing.

Class racing destroys all hope.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:28am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

6 pages and no mention of the Graduate yet, the new Rooster boats are considerably faster than the old wood ones, the PY is slowly catching up but seeing as there are only about 10 in existance it will take a long time!

It's on the list, just taking me longer than i thought to put it together, I can't seem to find all my aged PY lists.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:29am

Graduate is an interesting one, My boat goes very well in light airs with the new rig.  But get battered as the wind picks up.  So i guess its horses for courses really.  But if the Graduate is quick in light airs but not so in heavy (and certainly not the sea) is a true bandit ala Merlin (or perhaps previously) the Phantom who perform consistanly well across a broad wind/water range?



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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:42am
That Merlin the boys are using, which seems fairly modern, has a carbon stock, is red (therefore fast) gave us a good whooping in the ship race yesterday and I thought at one point we had an unassailable lead (which we then screwed up when our wing wang went wrong), but this was a semi long distance race in a freshening west wind on fairly flat open water, the assyms should have creamed it, we should have creamed it) They are on or around the same pace as the Rs400 & 500's that were racing, so a handicap over 1000 seems absurd, this is the first period I've really come into anything other than fleeting contact with this supercharged cockleshell, kind of reminds me of those Ford Prefects with Nitrous injected V8 Hemi's you get at Santa Pod raceway.
Edit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathewmackenzie/7576368640/in/set-72157630589687244/ - The offenders just after the start

Lucky I forgot to give the trophy back so it will fall to me to get it engraved for themWink


-------------

https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 10:50am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

The Psychology of being a good loser, is to always have something (or someone) other than yourself to blame... This is the joy of handicap racing.

Class racing destroys all hope.


I think in class racing, there is sometimes less need to analyse stuff when you get ashore.
You come 18th on the water, you leave it on the water. No waiting around for the results to come out, then being disappointed.
I've been to open meetings and only looked at the results to see who's winning out of the top guys.


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 1:22pm

My belief is that there must always be a tradeoff to sailing a bandit. I can't think of any that don't have a significant downside. For example: Slow/dull (Streaker, Solo), Expensive (Merlin), painful to sail (OK), dead class (EPS).

If bandit boats didn't have a downside then everyone would sail them and the PY would become more sensible. So whilst there may be some brief pleasure whilst checking the results these sailors pay dearly for it by boredom, large cash outflow, being slowly crippled or being a source of redicule.
 
I'd trade glory for satisfaction every time.


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RS400 1289, Laser 203001


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 1:35pm
Grumph,
isnt your alto a bandit boat with a larger Main, Jib and kite than standard? but with the same py as the other altos?
so your taring you self with the same brush?


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TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 1:58pm
I have been away for the weekend watching people run round in circles and jump around for no good purpose.  I thought I would read through what had been posted to see if anything new had been said or if it was just the usual whingeing.....

ho hum. 


-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

That Merlin the boys are using, ...
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathewmackenzie/7576368640/in/set-72157630589687244/ - The offenders just after the start


You can see they went from next to you, to several boatlengths to windward of you  in just a few seconds.


-------------
" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by I luv Wight

Originally posted by G.R.F.

That Merlin the boys are using, ...
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathewmackenzie/7576368640/in/set-72157630589687244/ - The offenders just after the start


You can see they went from next to you, to several boatlengths to windward of you  in just a few seconds.
 
If you flip back a couple of pics, I'm more concerned about the shorts the RS400 helm is wearing.  I'd rather be seen in a Solo than a pair of those!  Not to mention a pink hull...
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by olly_love

Grumph,
isnt your alto a bandit boat with a larger Main, Jib and kite than standard? but with the same py as the other altos?
so your taring you self with the same brush?

That was the standard set up when I purchased it, and if they want me to come in line they should offer a retro package. It also, I might remind you, came as 935 PY, with that rig. Now, in the days I raced it with my original crew, we raced at 915, just as we raced the 500 at 965, at the hands of those bandits in the Merlin who also work out the results, it's part and parcel of being a semi retired sailing God with a loose tongue, it could be described as a self administered personal handicap.Wink

However, the Alto is one thing, it's a new class and there are not to many of them around yet, whereas Merlins abound, like a virus.


PS, those sails are all knackered now and the kite and jib I understand are unchanged, the standard kite might even be bigger.

PPS, the EPS I would say is far from being a Bandit, hence it's number increasing, mind you, now I'm sailing it, that might change.Wink


-------------

https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Jul 12 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by I luv Wight

Originally posted by G.R.F.

That Merlin the boys are using, ...
  http://www.flickr.com/photos/mathewmackenzie/7576368640/in/set-72157630589687244/ - The offenders just after the start


You can see they went from next to you, to several boatlengths to windward of you  in just a few seconds.

Yes we were a bit early at the pin end and had to foot down the line along with the Contender who has of late been winning everything, so was due a good burying at the start..LOL

We rounded first, they all tacked in to try for a repeat of that lift off the line which happens in a Westerly with a bit of North in it, but also what happens in those conditions and what we were playing for, was more wind out at sea and the inevitable knock back to West, which duly occurred.

It was on the downwind leg they nailed us, which shouldn't have happened, it was written...Wink


I'm having trouble getting the words 'Jammy Bandit b**tard Brothers' engraved on the little shield on the Trophy.


-------------

https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 2:09am
I've always thought the adjustment for age requested by some classes is massively unfair on others because:-
Given that the PY for any class is based on the theoretical average performance of all boats, Old and New, any adjustments should start at the mean value and have both + and - numbers either side of that. Shouldn't they?
It's not suprising that the Class Association(s) only want positive adjustments and take no account of the fact that newer boats are very likely to be performing far better than the average PY number. But it is cheeky at best, and bare faced cheek at that.

So the adjustments for 'some' classes should probably look something like this:

New Boat   -50 
2 - 5 years old   -25
5-10 years old  PY number
10-15 years old +25
15 yrs +  +50

Wink


-------------
Keith
29er 661 (with my daughters / nephew)
49er 688 (with Phil P)
RS200 968
Vortex (occasionally)
Laser 2049XX


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 5:47am
Originally posted by Hector

Given that the PY for any class is based on the theoretical average performance of all boats


Nope. It's based on the observed (not theoretical) performance of boats that race in PY events for which returns are made. There will, presumably, be a bias towards newer boats because they get raced more. IIRC you don't see an awful lot of Vintage Merlins in the Bloody Mary, for example.


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:34am
I don't understand the assumption that an assymetric will necessarily be faster than a symmetric spinnaker?  Surely a well set, well worked sym can be just as fast, if not sometimes faster.

-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:38am
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by Hector

Given that the PY for any class is based on the theoretical average performance of all boats


Nope. It's based on the observed (not theoretical) performance of boats that race in PY events for which returns are made. There will, presumably, be a bias towards newer boats because they get raced more. IIRC you don't see an awful lot of Vintage Merlins in the Bloody Mary, for example.

Which just reinforces how important it is for clubs to do their PY returns and capture the performance of old boats that only club race.  Then Hectors suggestion would begin to look interesting.




Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:39am
Originally posted by winging it

I don't understand the assumption that an assymetric will necessarily be faster than a symmetric spinnaker?  Surely a well set, well worked sym can be just as fast, if not sometimes faster.

Correct, especially on a well set traditional 'round the cans' club course with a tight and broad reach and a run.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:42am
Originally posted by winging it

I don't understand the assumption that an assymetric will necessarily be faster than a symmetric spinnaker?  Surely a well set, well worked sym can be just as fast, if not sometimes faster.

Yes, symmetrics can definitely be faster, especially on short broad or dead downwind legs that are often a feature of inland club racing.




Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 8:56am
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by Hector

Given that the PY for any class is based on the theoretical average performance of all boats


Nope. It's based on the observed (not theoretical) performance of boats that race in PY events for which returns are made. There will, presumably, be a bias towards newer boats because they get raced more. IIRC you don't see an awful lot of Vintage Merlins in the Bloody Mary, for example.


Agree it is observed, but disagree that more new boats race in handicap. Alot of the time they will be racing (in this example) other Merlins all summer long. The BM (and other big handicap events) change the numbers because they have found that general returns from week in week out club racing don't fit with their demographics, as more newer boats with faster helms take part, and the average club racer in a 15 year old boat doesn't.

I think Hector's idea is one which CA's of development classes should look closely at as a guide to clubs. However, with the RYA's new system, it should start to be ossible to get some data to back up (or indeed set) the numbers. And would this then put new Merlins at a disadvantage compared to new Solos, Phantoms etc, which are also faster than class average? Where would it end? Especially as different classes loose speed at different rates. As a sailor of an old Lightning and Ancient Firefly, I'd love to see age allowances across the board! But neither boat is really slower than a new one by a measurable amount.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 9:02am
I like this Hector. -50% at 15 years. My Trafalgar relic Solo must be at least 30 years old so, -100%......bring it on!


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 9:13am
Originally posted by Hector

I've always thought the adjustment for age requested by some classes is massively unfair on others because... any adjustments should start at the mean value and have both + and - numbers either side of that. Shouldn't they?
It's not suprising that the Class Association(s) only want positive adjustments and take no account of the fact that newer boats are very likely to be performing far better than the average PY number. But it is cheeky at best, and bare faced cheek at that.
So the adjustments for 'some' classes should probably look something like this:
New Boat <span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span> <span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>-50 
2 - 5 years old  <span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>-25
5-10 years old <span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre; ">     </span><span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>PY number
10-15 years old<span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>+25
15 yrs + <span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">               </span>+50
Wink

Exactly so. Even then, why should old Merlins get a boost and not, say, old Lasers?

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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 9:22am
Originally posted by Hector

I've always thought the adjustment for age requested by some classes is massively unfair on others because:-
Given that the PY for any class is based on the theoretical average performance of all boats, Old and New, any adjustments should start at the mean value and have both + and - numbers either side of that. Shouldn't they?
It's not suprising that the Class Association(s) only want positive adjustments and take no account of the fact that newer boats are very likely to be performing far better than the average PY number. But it is cheeky at best, and bare faced cheek at that.

So the adjustments for 'some' classes should probably look something like this:

New Boat   -50 
2 - 5 years old   -25
5-10 years old  PY number
10-15 years old +25
15 yrs +  +50

Wink

Let me know which boats lose 5% of speed in 5 years, I'd like to avoid those classes please!
I think in boats like the 400, the age of the sails is closer to the point than the age of the hull.
Don't forget that the best known age adjusted handicap, the Merlin Rocket, aims to allow for older designs in good condition, rather than current shape boats in a 'well used' state.




Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 9:40am
But when you sail a Merlin, you know it is a development class. So if you buy an old design, its not competitive. There are pro's and con's to a development class and that is one of the cons.
Or at least, if older designs are to be given a boost, it should be so for all other classes e.g. Old Toppers with thinner booms, Fireballs with narrow bows, Solos without 3dl sails, Bladerider moths.
And as Hector says, if the old designs get a boost, new designs should get a penalty otherwise the average is skewed.

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Posted By: Slippery Jim
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 11:24am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

You might jest but after my Thursday night performance there are three people looking for them, believing of course that it must be the boat, no way could that old t**ser win single handed..
They are correct about everything in that statement... LOLClapCry


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Pass the skiff, man!


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Peaky

But when you sail a Merlin, you know it is a development class. So if you buy an old design, its not competitive. There are pro's and con's to a development class and that is one of the cons.
Or at least, if older designs are to be given a boost, it should be so for all other classes e.g. Old Toppers with thinner booms, Fireballs with narrow bows, Solos without 3dl sails, Bladerider moths.
And as Hector says, if the old designs get a boost, new designs should get a penalty otherwise the average is skewed.


It seems that Merlins get a penalty most years in the drifting PY.
But that's more to do with the vagaries of the PY system than any rational analysis of how the boats age.
You can't fine tune the PY system to this degree, it simply is not fit or intended for that purpose.
Unless you are going to make adjustments according to the age of people's sails, fiddling at the edges is a waste of time.


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:21pm

IMO i beleive that a dinghy class should be handicapped to the latest rule set/Hull design.  As an example the National 12 to the dead cat bounce, Merlin to the Winder, Solo the Ovington Hull, Phantom Ovi hull.

 
Now i know there is going to be some disagreement around fairness in old boats, well i am sorry thats life!  Why should old equipment remain competitive at national level 10+ years?  Arguably the most competitve classes in the UK/World are classes where 10 year old gear is outdated and off the pace.  The Solo as a prime example.  People know what they are buying into when they purchase an old Phantom/Merlin its all over their own forums.  Perhaps if the RYA could PY the class off the newest boats and leave it to the class associations to suggest age related PY bandings/increases which with data backing their suggestions up the RYA could ratify in club racing.


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Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


Originally posted by Peaky

But when you sail a Merlin, you know it is a development class. So if you buy an old design, its not competitive. There are pro's and con's to a development class and that is one of the cons.
Or at least, if older designs are to be given a boost, it should be so for all other classes e.g. Old Toppers with thinner booms, Fireballs with narrow bows, Solos without 3dl sails, Bladerider moths.
And as Hector says, if the old designs get a boost, new designs should get a penalty otherwise the average is skewed.
It seems that Merlins get a penalty most years in the drifting PY.But that's more to do with the vagaries of the PY system than any rational analysis of how the boats age. You can't fine tune the PY system to this degree, it simply is not fit or intended for that purpose.Unless you are going to make adjustments according to the age of people's sails, fiddling at the edges is a waste of time.

That's my point. It is ludicrous to suggest different PYs for all boat ages/conditions. But if you sail an old Merlin you get a bonus to your PY, sail an old Fireball and you don't. Is that fair?    

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Peaky

But if you sail an old Merlin you get a bonus to your PY, sail an old Fireball and you don't. Is that fair?    

I suspect for every club that uses different handicaps for older boats there are three that don't. But every club is free to do exactly what they like. At my club it tends to depend on the event.

The RYA does not issue numbers for old boats. Certain class associations do as a service to their members and to the clubs. Typically those numbers reflect what the PY was when the old designs were new: there's no allowance for the boats just getting slower with age, so yes, I would say that is fair.

There's nothing to stop one design classes from doing the same thing, but typically its not a message they want to give out. There are also certain classes where doing do would result in the old boats having a harsher handicap than the current ones, so be careful what you ask for...



Posted By: Atrocity
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 1:13pm
IMO, it stands to reason that a new boat with new sails and free running blocks will be more capable of performing better than PY, likewise a knackered old boat is less likely to do so.  But these two boats are at the fringes of our sport and the vast majority of boats which participate in handicap racing (which is at club level) fall into the middle ground. The time that it takes to sail these boats around a course has much more to do with the ability of the individual sailor rather than the ability of the individual boat.  I can think of dozens of people who sail in boats 10+ years old, Lasers, Scorpions, Contenders and Merlins, who are very very difficult to beat.  

Strangely, I have never heard them bleat about the PY system.

Atrocity


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 2:21pm
To get a 50 point 'bonus' on your PY, your Merlin has to be pre-73.
Something like this:
photoIt is a whole different hull shape, by design than anything modern.
It is about a foot narrower, so has less righting power.
It does not have the ability to carry the raking rig.
Whereas a Fireball is essentially the same hull shape now as then.
You could put a modern rig on an early Fireball and theoretically have the same power as a new boat.

I'm not too driven by PY racing  for its own sake, but anything that encouraged more people to get out and race what ever they have, or whatever they can buy cheaply would be good in my book.
But do people have old boats because they're not fantastically keen to race, or does having an old boat put them off? Maybe it's chicken and egg, a bit of both?

There are parallels in motorcycle racing, where classic racing and '70's' classes are very popular.
But it quickly gets serious, with people spending real money to be competitive.

I also suspect vintage Merlin racing is not the cheapest branch of dinghy sailing.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


You could put a modern rig on an early Fireball and theoretically have the same power as a new boat.

Having raced a 'classic' Fireball (of the narrow bow vintage) I would beg to differ. Whilst the rig total power might be the same there is no way you can run modern rig tension on the older boats (or ever could even when they were new).

Don't get me wrong an old Fireball is fantastic for a blasting boat and a hoot when it gets really windy but a 'modern' wide boat is some 3-5 minutes faster round the course.

As a case in point Adam Bowers campaigned an old wooden boat at the worlds some years back. This was a 'one off' special that had been looked after and he was nowhere near the pace and the fastest of the 'narrow' boats by quite some margin.

What would be interesting would be to build a 'narrow' boat using the modern construction techniques and pit it against a 'wide' boat to see what the difference is.

I suspect no one would ever go to that expense given how much faster the 'wide' boats were when the aussies bought them over for the worlds many years ago.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 2:37pm
Disagree about the furball.  The new Wide bow boats, as i understand it are very different to the older narrow bow versions.  Also the Merlin pictured looks to be deck stepped, therefore arguably can have a fully raking rig, even hog step high bow tanked boats can be converted (but at what expense)
The Merlin IMO is a victim of its own success, years on constant refinement has created arguably one of the finest boats/fleets in the UK.  The only downside is that older boats are out classed at major championships.  But as mentioned earlier thats life, everyone knows that when they buy an outdated Merlin it is just that...Outdated.  Which is probably why comparably they are relatively cheap and good value.

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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 7:28pm
Wide bow Fireballs plane earlier and for longer than narrow bow boats, and the all plastic baots have lighter ends. However, a VERY well sailed and maintained narrow Winder composite was in the top flight at the nationals a year or so back, but this is an exceptional case of meticulous maintenance and a top flight team on board. The narrow boats are now looking at 20 years old, and are either grotty plastic (stiff? what's that?) or composite with the weight issues that brings.


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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Jul 12 at 10:00pm
Classic racing can be as expensive as racding contemporary boats, not least because nothing can be bought 'off the shelf' so sails, covers, foils etc all have to be custom made.  You have to be a fan of woodwork, scraping and varnishing and you must never, ever expect to recoup what you spend or tot up the cost of your hours spent doing maintenance.

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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 3:37am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Now i know there is going to be some disagreement around fairness in old boats, well i am sorry thats life!  Why should old equipment remain competitive at national level 10+ years? 
To take the other viewpoint - why shouldn't old gear remain competitive at national for 10+ years? Some of the greatest classes are those (505s, Finns, Dragons IIRC, etc) in which boats last for years. It's rather special when there are hulls with a history to them.
 
Obviously in some classes the culture, economics and purpose mean that old boats do become obsolete, but there is no reason why this should be the norm.
 
How far do we take the "that's life" attitude? Do we just keep racking up the cost of competition in the sport without care for what it does to the sailors and the sport itself? What does such an attitude do for the image of a sport already cursed by an image that says that it's too expensive and elitist?


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 7:55am
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Ruscoe

Now i know there is going to be some disagreement around fairness in old boats, well i am sorry thats life!  Why should old equipment remain competitive at national level 10+ years? 
To take the other viewpoint - why shouldn't old gear remain competitive at national for 10+ years? Some of the greatest classes are those (505s, Finns, Dragons IIRC, etc) in which boats last for years. It's rather special when there are hulls with a history to them.
 
Obviously in some classes the culture, economics and purpose mean that old boats do become obsolete, but there is no reason why this should be the norm.
 
How far do we take the "that's life" attitude? Do we just keep racking up the cost of competition in the sport without care for what it does to the sailors and the sport itself? What does such an attitude do for the image of a sport already cursed by an image that says that it's too expensive and elitist?

Well, its already happening, new(er) gear is pretty much needed to win most national championships nowadays.  That and obviously being the best sailor!  As a former 5o5 sailor i agree that the boats have a great competitive life.  But lets not be fooled even the old lindsey or Waterat hulls will win you the worlds!  I agree about historic boats as well, fantastic!  But i am talking about handicap racing, I firmly believe that all handicaps shou;ld be based off latest ruleset and new designs.  Ignoring the data from boats over 10 years old.  It would do nothing to the image of a the sport, because as you state its already thought to be too expensive.  But i do think it may help reduce the used prices of dinghy's, thus making it more attainable for entry level club racing.  Th UK dinghy scene must be one of the only sports/industry's in the country where you can buy a second hand piece of equipment and sell it a year later for similar/same money.  Its crazy, people think its healthy but trust me its not.  I could talk to you for hours about vehicle depreciation and why its good for the motor trade.

I believe one of the major problems in the Uk dinghy scene at present is the used dinghy market, prices are abnormally high for boats which are outdated.  £2000 should be a good entry level cost into a semi competitive class racing.  Whilst it would buy you a nice Laser, if your turned up to our small River club in £2k worth of Solo you would be battered from bank to bank (Trust me it happened several times in recent years)  How can that possibly be healthy?  A new starter is already at a disadvantage, which is doubled by the fact that the boat is severely off the pace, I say let them know that the £2k Solo is going to be slower then more modern kit, PY the class off the latest hull shapes so people have to upgrade, which in turn will create more supply making the £2k boat worth nearer £1k and the £4k boat nearer £3k all of a sudden we have people able to afford newer kit when starting out and actually enjoying their racing experience.

By the sounds of it Chris, its people with your attitude that are holding the sport back.  Whichever way you look at it, we live in a disposable age.  Dinghy sailing is not excluded from this and it needs to roll with the punches to grow.  As they Say 'Thats Life'


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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 8:00am
Originally posted by winging it

Classic racing can be as expensive as racding contemporary boats, not least because nothing can be bought 'off the shelf' so sails, covers, foils etc all have to be custom made.  You have to be a fan of woodwork, scraping and varnishing and you must never, ever expect to recoup what you spend or tot up the cost of your hours spent doing maintenance.

Clap
agree Nessa, The CVRDA is a great and growing thing (probably growing faster then most dinghy classes) 

My suggestion to the RYA would be, use the latest designs and rulesets to PY dinghy classes, these PY numbers can be used as the base (core numbers for a class)  then ask the class association to administer and manage their own age related PY numbers, giving the data/reports to the RYA to ratify for club use.

I believe this would be a much fairer way of rating classes.


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 8:42am
There is barely enough data in the system to get meaningful PY's as it is. If you only had data from boats less than  years old at club handicap level, you would have meaningless noise supplied by only the wealthy or debt ridden.Can't see how that helps the sport in the slightest, except to turn even more people off it.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 8:49am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

people with your attitude that are holding the sport back.  Whichever way you look at it, we live in a disposable age.  Dinghy sailing is not excluded from this and it needs to roll with the punches to grow.  

What, like Board sailing did?

I suspect quite the opposite could be the problem. Its the disposable culture that puts some people off the sport long term. They do a couple of seasons in their new disposable thermoplastic boat, discover a bunch of idiots sneer at them because they've got the wrong one, maybe spend a couple mnore seasons swapping from class to class according to what they think is trendy, then give up because it just constant expense and hassle.


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 9:45am
I think we will have to agree to disagree there Jim.  Board sailing is different to Dinghy sailing on many different levels.  Not least the inital new price of kit in comparrison to dinghy sailing. 
I firmly beleive that (Most) new boats are fairly priced.  But i do think the used market is shambolic.  Sure i can look and understand the complexities of used markets outside of the dinghy industry with better understanding than most, after all its what i do for a living.  But it cannot be good for the sport as a whole.  What gets me is everyone is so quick to defend dinghy sailing in its current format, when its quite obvious to me that its not moving forward.  There are no massive influx of new memebers at many of the clubs i am associated with.  New boat sails seem to flat line (albeit percieved as we get given little or false data)
 
Now i am not GRF and i certainly do not think that all wooden or classic boats should be burnt.  They offer a great introduction and budget entry into most classes, but how can it be sustainable if the sport is to grow and not just remain static? 
 
We see great participation at nearly all of the major handicap events, but each year we get the same grumblings about the PY scheme.  Generally about Modern Phantoms, Streakers, Merlins etc. etc.  Now i understand that my OP was a little draconian and would be hard to implement.  But i stand by it, Development and rehashed older classes should IMO be PY'd to the latest rules and the classes could then implement a ratified classic number.  It would make the racing fairer (case in point the Solo and Merlin) for the Older boats whilst also ensuring that racing in larger handicap events would be fairer.  Not that it would matter to me as my ability is the limiting factor not my PY.


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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 9:51am
The CVRDA (which should be a banned organisation by the way) is only growing with the ageing population, all those fifties and sixties baby boomers now turned coffin dodgers, know no different, the fact it is growing is a bad thing. What needs to be growing is the 25- 45 group racing decent modern stuff, but it isn't simply because that group have jobs and lives they need to concentrate on so have no time to practise sailing the alleged modern performance stuff because of all the design faults I've constantly illustrated over my brief tenure of these boards.

Now this discussion has just confirmed what we all know to be true, in that the PY system is a tad slow to react and when it does can only offer an average of the given classes with the lipstick classes slowly reducing the handicap and the none development classes on the other hand trending slower simply to my mind because the boats and helms are probably ageing.

Either way I think we all seem to be agreeing that the Merlins system and the idea hector suggests would work as a guideline to clubs such as ours who don't have the will or confidence to risk the angst of altering the RYA guideline PY.

So if one were to draw up those aged columns with the main PY down the middle and to the left a minus figure for the new less than what 3 yr old boats then to the right age them at what 5 yr gaps?

What would work? 1 pt per annum so 5pts per 5 yr?


So the Merlin would look

New-5yr  Current PY    5+yr     10 yr   20 yr
997 1002 1007 1012 1022  and so forth

And a Phantom might look

1020 1025 1030 1035 1045

Which would have left my pals boat pretty much where it was and only the new pro jocks testing their sails penalised.

It seems like a good idea to me, with the latest, new boat new sail, pro jock community well able to cope with the extra penalty and the older boats benefitting by their age which should appeal to most here.

Or would it all be just too much hassle?




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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 9:59am
1) definitely too much hassle

2) if it was to be done possibly it should be done for sail age rather than boat age

3) is it just me, or does CVDRA when read quickly come across as cavader to you? only jokingWink  


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 12 at 10:00am
So you think the boat that won most races at the Merlin Nationals needs a 7 point PY advantage?



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